Man, i’ve been so busy lately. Finally I feel like i have a moment to write about the chapter on tithing in Pagan Christianity by George Barna & Frank Viola. I loved this book. I couldn’t put it down. If i had the time, i would have read it from front cover to back cover in one sitting- all 275 pages. There are many people out there that are against tithing, but not as many understand the spiritual, as well as functional discrepancies that tithing creates within the church. Frank Viola understands the discrepancies and portrays them in this book very well.
The whole theme of Pagan Christianity is an exploration of the roots of our church practices. Frank Viola goes through a whole list of things, and of course the topic of tithing was the most exciting for me to read. Let’s just get to the meat. Viola says,
“Under the Old Testament system, tithing was good news to the poor. However, in our day, mandatory tithing equals oppression to the poor. Not a few poor Christians have been thrown into deeper poverty because they have felt obligated to give beyond their means.”
The church has not only wrongfully integrated the tithe into the Church system today, but they’ve taken away the power to its most essential blessing- to take care of the poor. First, the Church budget and its wants are put in position above the needs of the poor. Second, we require the poor to contribute 10% of the little money that they have, which worsens their situation. Let’s face it, i know God is all powerful, but he hasn’t promised a never ending supply of oil and flour to the poor, because he’s given us a responsibility to care for them ourselves.
This next quote from Pagan Christianity talks about clergy salaries and raises a very good point. I had never thought about this until it was mentioned here,
“A further peril of the paid pastorate is that it produces clergy who feel “stuck” in the pastorate because they believe they lack employable skills. . . All of the schooling and training had been dedicated to studying and preaching the Bible. While these skills are noteworthy, they are of limited appeal in the secular job market. The major hurdle they now face is forging a new career to support their families.”
Guaranteed, steady salaries that employ full time pastors can create many stumbling blocks. The above mentioned is one of them. Some things to think about. One, should pastors be a full time staff member, so that when the time comes to leave the ministry, that they can provide for their family with some experience in practical skills? Two, does their steady income and lack of practical skills keep them locked in the ministry regardless if God is calling them out? What if ministers are asked to step out because of sin, or whatever else? Then what? Tell me what you think?
Related Posts
- Pagan Christianity – part 2
- Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola & George Barna
- Reimagining Church by Frank Viola
- History of Passing the Offering Plate
Tags: book, clergy salaries, frank viola, george barna, pagan christianity, tithing
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Jared,
I would like to kindly disagree with you on the broad nature of the statements that you have made.
I think the problem with so many statements that oppose tithing is the attempt to put all who believe in it into the same corner.
You see, I don’t receive a salary. I don’t know who in my church consistently tithes. There are differing plates up front, and they bring their monies and put them into the plates as they feel led to divide it up. Some goes to pastor, some to church, missions, etc. In the end, I get whatever goes into the plate marked “pastor”. That amount varies from week to week based on people’s income, but it is a liveable wage. I believe in tithing, but that does not mean that we have become a church that is stuck in a rut that will prohibit it from helping those in trouble. Sometimes we have taken offerings where I pastor for a month in every service simply to help a family having hard times.
Jared, this is where I take issue with you…not so much in that you disagree with tithing, but that you make such broad statements that simply do not represent all who believe in tithing.
By the way, I also have a few skills that are marketable…I believe. I know other pastors who are so, too.
Grace and peace in Christ.
Thanks for the comment.
When i speak of “church”, i am speaking of the church globally. Of course there are exceptions, such as your fellowship. For instance If i say that Church is being corrupted by pastors getting into pornography, does not mean i am pointing at every single pastor. I try to lay interesting material out there, but i can’t force you to be objective about what you’ve read.
i feel that tithing can put people in ruts that prohibit them from helping the poor. Functionally i think it has a higher capacity to get you into that rut as opposed to grace/spirit-led giving. I am not saying that you are in that rut. i wouldn’t know. But i do feel that tithing increases the tendency for us to ignore the imminent needs of other things that are not initially on the list to be a recipient of our tithing.
Maybe, here’s what i mean. imagine if you planned with 3 other people to go out and knock on 50 doors downtown to witness to unsaved. But along the way there was an accident and you were at a dead stop for an hour on the road. What if there was a person right there on the side of the road that needed some help changing a tire. Would we be so consumed with being late and not meeting our door to door goals enough that we don’t see that God has prepared an opportunity right there to witness?
Here’s another example. (this is all hypothetical, but practical) What if we were on our way to Church and had $50 for our tithe to give to the church. But along the way you stopped to get gas, and someone asked if they could have gas for their car so they can take care of their family? Would we say, No?
The thirty pieces of silver prophecy is about ’salary’. King James says ‘price’. As I have been attempting to warn everyone, the putting of money into the storehouse is the same as putting money into the manna pot. The simple rebuke of Zechariah 11:12 is to just ‘forbear’ or ‘leave it alone’. In Christ it has all been done for us. This makes us free to give, free to love, free to live.
Jared,
I don’t have time to reply to all that you have to say.
I will say that I understand your approach a little better, though I do not agree with you.
Again, as I said on my blog, I appreciate your willingness to discuss this gracefully.
I trust that you shall have a wonderful day in Christ’s grace and mercy.
JLS
Hi I read Pagan Christianity a couple of years ago when I was learning the Truth about tithing and I agree it was a very enlightening book but I disagree on his view of the Shepherd/Pastor model. Although it was good informational studies I think he has allowed his experiences to shape his view of the Biblical pastor. Thanks God Bless
Wow You have given me another insight. I wanted to be a pastor but I did not want to have a lack of marketable skills. That is a problem. Paul could work with his hands and he lived in a primitive society yet he preached the gospel gave money to the poor and was imprisoned for the faith. All pastors should live like missionaries showing the exercise of offering their lives up everyday. I might just buy this book. In the meantime please keep giving us your insights. Thankyou
Great depiction – in total agreement with Frank on this one. I have fought the church model for 30+ years in multiple denominations. I have watched pastors get fat and retire and contribute nothing of what they were given back to the church. I have tithed and been condemned for not giving more than 10%. I have tithed and been accused of not tithing. I have seen the church laiety accused of not tithing being the cause of turmoil and calamity on the church. In all, God doesn’t need my money. If I give it in response to coersion, I’m a bad steward. So go forward Frank Viola and let the world know what tithing is really about and where the modern day tithe really originated!!!
Deacon and Usher – deaconandusher.wordpress.com
I have been in the pastorate for the last 15+ years and the last 7 in full time pastorate.
Until the last couple of years I have been very tight.
Deacon & Usher may be right that some don’t “contribute nothing of what they were given back to the church” but ALL pastor’s I know give back to the church and sacrifice more than most deacons.
Churches want someone to be there when a family member dies, has surgery or needs their runny nose wiped. They do not consider the time pastors must spend in study and prayer to do 2-4 messages a week. Then they don’t want to pay them what would be a decent wage any where else. I have pastored at places for years without any increase in pay whatsoever because of a gym the church built. My family sacrificed because the church didn’t want me to have another job.
What I am trying to say, Deacon & Usher, is that if people would support their Pastor better maybe then he could afford to give more. It is tough trying to support a wife and children on what churches pay. But those same churches want someone “full-time”. Then they complain about taking care of him… Read 1 Corinthians 9:14
What is a cost of a soul? God says it cost Him his son Jesus which is priceless. Now every pastors, missionary and evangelist should received a living wage. I pray that each one that was called by God to be bless, protected, strenghten, and full of the Holy Spirit with power and authority from on high in Jesus name Amem…
The above discussion is sad and shows how far off course modern day born-again Christians are. Blinded by longstanding traditions of men. For so many to be so fooled by the tithe lie, we must hardly be reading our Bible.
The New Testament Church met in houses, not in multi-million dollar worldly palaces. Not even in modest buildings that burden a poorer assembly. No conspicuous consuming on real estate means no money pressures to deceive ourselves and preach a lie.
There are two models for “pastors” (actually elders); Peter and Paul. Peter forbear work and lived in the houses of church members as prophesied by the Lord Jesus Christ. Paul primarily earned his own way, even supporting those he worked with, and was helped by established churches. No professional “pastorate” or staff. No worldly degrees granted by worldly seminaries placing unscriptural hurdles in the way and requiring money to be paid, borrowed, or granted.
The real Church has no overhead while the counterfeit church is defined by it. Giving in the real Church goes from people to people. The counterfeit church diverts resources from scriptural mandates (needy Christians, the poor, missions) and squanders it on buildings, maintenance, and unscriptural institutions and methods.
I have some questions to help you know if you are right or not about tithing. Jesus said, these signs shall follow them that believe; in my name —— mark 16:17-18. Who amongst you has any of these testimonies:
1. Any time a sick person is brought to you, you have consistently laid hands on them and they get healed instantly in the name of Jesus.
2. Through the power of the holy ghost, you prophecy to your congregation and it has consistently come to pass over many years.
3. You have trained your spirit to hear every time the spirit of God communicates to you and respond to him.
4. Any thing you get involved in, must turn out successful, nomatter what happens to the economy of the world.
Do not call any Christian poor because poverty is not the abscence of dollars and cents, it is a state of mind which is dealt with when you are born again. Even if he/she still has the poverty mentality, they only need to understand the scriptures.
Christians cannot be blinded by doctrines because no one that has Christ walkes in darkness.
I disagree with your perception of tithing. All that the bible talks about in the book of Malachi, concerning tithing is true, that has been my experience and am ready to share it with any one that will contact me.
God bless you all.
Hi, Kalu
The old covenant God had with the nation of Israel was exclusively for children of Israel only. No gentiles were allowed to go near the Sanctuary or the Temple that God commanded Arron and Moses to build. Only the tribe of Levites were allowed by God to go near the temple.
Please read (Numbers 18:1-3 ) Not even people from other tribes from the nation of Israel were allowed to go near the temple.
Jesus himself was not allowed to perform as a priest or a high priest when he was here on earth or he would have sin according to the Mosiac law. (Hebrews 8:4)
The veil in the temple was torn when Jesus died on the cross. That signifies that the old covenant was cancelled because the curse of the law was laid on Jesus. He redeemed all humanity from the wrath of God according to the old covenant with his sin offering with his precious blood that God the father accepted.
Please do not mix the PRECIOUS BLOOD OF JESUS with blood of animals that was used in sin offering according to the old Levitical priesthood by combining the new and old covenant.
DO NOT MIX JESUS SACRIFICE WITH animal sacrifice JUST TO QUOTE OLD TESTAMENT SCRIPTURES TO MANIPULATE CHRISTIANS TO PAY FOR YOUR HOUSE AND MATERIAL POSSESIONS. ( 1 Timothy 6:5 AMP ) is very clear on that .
Have a restful day in the lord.
Kalu,
Believe me Kalu, with all of the emails and comments that i have received, i can promise you that every positive experience you have with tithing, there is also a negative one.
I have a question, how do you define success? Would you define dying on a cross a success? Would you define being stoned to death a success? Would you define living off of locusts and honey in the wilderness a success?
I think you need to re-read the bible about your beliefs.
.-= steward´s last blog ..If Tithing Looks Like it & Acts Like It =-.