Posts Tagged ‘debt’

Some Nagging Thoughts in my Mind

Wednesday, July 14th, 2010

- Giving to the poor
The concept to support the poor through offerings is reiterated in the New Covenant, so why wouldn’t tithing be reiterated to support the spread of the gospel even just once?

- In regards to tithing and the New Testament:
The number one problem i had when i once believed in the tithing mandate was that all i could see was the consistency and repetitiveness of tithing. I could not see the other inconsistent, and incompatible errors it has under the new covenant. Anyone can see the similarities of any screwdriver and any screw, but it’s inconsistencies that will tell you whether or not a screw driver will fit the screw.

- To those who hate when I condemn prosperity preachers and their self serving ministries:
“God put this religious system here. But when the nation became so sinful, He sent the Babylonains in and they destroyed the very system which he had setup.” – Jim Gables, Vineland Park Baptist Church

- In regards to former multi-millionaire Mark Brunnel’s bankruptcy:
Why are people allowed to tithe while in bankruptcy proceedings?

- Why require Tithing and not Circumcision?:
Circumcision does not raise money. 1 Timothy 6:10

- Tithing and Debt:
I forget which is right and which is wrong – to tithe while in debt, or to gain debt while tithing?

- Tithing Money, Food, & Corruption
It’s important to note the reasons why the tithe was only food in the bible. It’s hard to hoard food when you can only eat so much of it. It’s quite the opposite with money . . . it seems you never have enough.

- Tithing to your neighbor
If i told you to tithe to your neighbor, what would your giving look like? But if i told you to love your neighbor as yourself, now what would your giving look like?

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Christian Financial Counselors V. Tithing

Tuesday, April 6th, 2010

I’m sitting here right now trying to think of a way to transition all the thoughts going through my mind, so this post might get a little bumpy and random. I have Google tithing alerts sent to my email every day. Whenever someone in the news or on their blog mentions tithing, i receive an email of a list of those websites. I try as best as i can to visit as many blogs and news sites as i can to place comments that refute tithing, and support Spirit led giving.

I am somewhat picky about the blogs i will comment on. I try to comment on blogs that seem to get a little more traffic because i don’t have much time to comment in the first place, and wish to share my thoughts with as many as possible. There are certain types of blog posts that i  usually do not write on regardless of their website traffic – and that is blogs that give personal and emotional testimonies about tithing.

Trying to reason with someone about their personal experiences with tithing is like trying to take a child away from a mother who has carried for nine months and has given birth. You cannot take those experiences and emotions away from people. They will take those emotions to their grave. The best thing i’ve found is to state a few verses to counter-balance their emotions, plant a few seeds in forms of questions, and then be on your way. Side note about internet debating – you have no personal rapport with anybody. They don’t know you, so you aren’t going to change their mind anyway.

History proves over and over that you cannot persecute or beat ‘faith’ out of anyone. It only makes them more stubborn, stronger, or turns them into martyrs. Many people believe tithing out of emotional faith, and not because of reason. This is one of the reasons why I try to stay away from the tedious, long, relentless banters towards any ‘opponent’. If you stay in an argument too long, both you and your opponent will be going around in circles while placing more and more bricks on each of your castle walls.

(So here’s one of those weird transitions :| ) This is going to seem awkward to say but we need to take these emotional experiences away from people. I first was thinking about all this when i was reading Dave Ramsey’s website. On there it had someone’s testimony about tithing and then getting out of debt. It made me think that when they’ve gotten out of debt and the emotional relief they felt was all attributed to tithing. Unfortunately, this is false advertising for tithing because Dave Ramsey is a financial counselor not a tithing counselor. People have to change their buying and saving habits in order to get out of debt.

Tithing never got anyone out of debt, and yet you hear of thousands of testimonies every year who attribute financial success to tithing advice from a financial counselor. You will always hear a testimony such as this – ‘We were in up to our necks in debt. We met with a Christian financial counselor. Someone challenged us to tithe. In one year we paid off $20,000 in credit card debt.’ Even hearing the story, we get so caught up in the astronomical achievement that we don’t even wonder what tithing even has to do with spending, credit cards, and materialism?

(another awkward transition) Since i want to take the focus of financial success stories away from tithing, here’s the bottom line -  I wish to support Christian financial counseling ministries that does not support tithing. We need stories that include financial success while people gave freely without tithing.

Your Help is Needed

All of this encouraged me to go on a practical but seemingly unrealistic journey to find a Christian Financial Counseling Ministry that does not support tithing. My search has almost come up empty, so i am going to ask all of you if you are familiar with a christian financial ministry that does not support tithing in their counseling plans. I was fortunate to accidentally come across http://www.providentplan.com/.  They provide great Christian Financial Counseling services, but we need to find as many others as possible.

Crown and Dave Ramsey are great counseling tools but they both support tithing in their financial counseling plans. I am looking for a company that provides similar services, but I want to partner with or promote a Christian financial organization that does not support tithing. If we are to eliminate the false teaching through tithing, we need to promote organizations that do not teach tithing in their financial foundations. We need to create Christian financial success stories that show tithing is not a magical formula that gets you out of debt.

If we do not support the ministries that teach the right thing, then Dave Ramsey and Crown will still pump out people who will be permanently rooted in the tithing doctrine. If we can get people to see that it is sound financial principles that creates good stewardship, then there will be less and less work for us to do in the long run. We have to get people at the roots. Crown and Ramsey’s converts makes their pupils into tithers for life.

If we can all band together and promote a third financial ministry, one day it may turn out to be a huge competitor to crown and ramsey. This will be a great way to get the truth about tithing out there.Yes, I think my vision is somewhat idealistic, but we’ve gotta be realistic that every one that ramsey and crown covert to tithing will be near impossible to change back.

THE GOAL: Find financial counseling ministries that do not teach tithing and post them in your comments. I would like to compile a list of all these organizations in a blog post.

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How Spirit Led Giving Could Transform the Church

Wednesday, November 11th, 2009

If Spirit led giving is more beneficial than tithing, then there must be an objective list of benefits to prove it. Here is a list of the positive changes that would come in result of Spirit led giving as opposed to tithing.

1. Church budgets would require more faith to operate through freewill gifts

The tithe acts as a mandated tax system, which implies that you are obligated by ‘law’ to pay it. The tithe works out great for church budgets. Granted not everyone tithes, but still the few that feel obligated to, are consistent and reliable in providing steady income for the church. Regardless of rain, or shine, utopia or apocalypse; these faithful few will tithe.

I can understand how a base salary for church budgets seems to make common sense, but at the same time, let’s look at the pitfalls. Imagine if your leaders want to build a skating rink, bowling alley, and pool hall inside your church. All they have to do is say is the spirit of God is leading them. In the mean time, your consistent tithe enables this poor stewardship because your predictable giving provides no accountability for the spending. They tactfully rely on your tithe because they bet that your fear of the . . . “curse” . . . will keep your money in their pockets. As a tither your money must go towards your home Church regardless of your feelings or desire to give elsewhere.

Imagine a church that will say “we believe that God is calling us to start a homeless ministry, and we believe that He will call others to donate without being forced to do so”? I’m sure all the church accountants will start biting their nails off. According to their faith it’s seemingly impossible to operate a Church by people who are led by the Holy Spirit.

Spirit led, freewill giving takes an extreme amount of faith to accept. Operating a ministry through a mandated tax system requires very little faith compared to spirit led gifts.

To practice a faith that believes the Holy Spirit is capable of convincing a missionary to travel to the remote parts of an African jungle but is not capable to direct others to give freely is hypocritical.

2. Many ministries not called by the Spirit will close their doors

Some have heard the old saying, “if God calls a ministry, he will pay for it”. Unfortunately, many church doors remain open today because of the imposed tax system levied upon the members. The mandated tithe guarantees the place is warm in the winter and the lights are on at night, but it does not hearts are receptive and God is welcome.

If the Spirit of God were in control of funding the ministries, then the Spirit of God would encourage us to give only to those ministries in which He wishes to work in. If you are unhappy with the financial decisions of your fellowship, then most of us are technically faced with 2 bogus decisions. One is to keep paying our tithe with regret, and the other option is to leave. This doesn’t seem like a great choice. The people of God need the liberty to give to any ministry that their heart is pleased with. Look, i don’t believe that all of us will agree with every financial decision of our church body, which means we should not violate our spiritual conscience and blindly follow a legal law.

At any given time, God’s people need the option to practice discernment when deciding which ministry is best suited for monetary support. Spirit led giving truly practices the cliche statement, that if God calls a ministry, then God will pay for it.

3. More needs would be supplied rather than wants

You don’t have to beg for givers when you see someone in a desperate fight to keep their family healthy because of a financial hardship. Within my Church fellowship, we are building homes for poor people in Guatemala. Once you hear their testimonies, and hear about their spiritual and physical struggles, many times people are anxious for the offering plate to be passed around.

On the other hand, when you look at 3-D models of the potential state-of-the-art fitness facility, many times the pastor has to preach a mini sermon on tithing prior to the offering plate being passed around. They have to lay the guilt on you and make you feel the pressure. If it’s not guilt they impose on you, then their other tactic is to get you to salivate over this nice new facility. So more than likely your desire to give is out of greed or guilt, and not out of a cheerful heart. Let me be clear . . . I’m not saying that tithing can’t be done with a right heart, or that church buildings are all bad.

Spirit led giving allows us the choice to put your money anywhere. The tithe only allows us one option – put your money in the “local storehouse” offering. The responsibility of church leaders is to distribute your tithe according to needs or wants. Many times, our leaders may do a great job, but on some occasions, your desire may be to give elsewhere.

Most churches are setup to appeal to our greed because when we walk in we expect cushioned chairs, hi-def screens, marble flooring, and fancy sight and sound. If we stop seeing these amenities, we begin to wonder where our tithe is going. We give our tithe partly because of the luxurious benefits we receive from it. When people aren’t seeing any new TV’s or equipment in the church, then we start questioning where our tithe is going. This cycle causes most of our tithe to be spent on church amenities and not on the real needs. No wonder recent giving statistics have stated that 85% of what religious organizations bring in is spent on internal operation.

4. People would pray more

Tithing is so easy! No thinking involved. No questions. No doubts. Just take your paycheck, multiply by .10, and now you have your tithe. You don’t need to pray or ask God about anything. This is the epitome of automatic Christianity.

Christ didn’t die so that we can continue to blindly follow rituals that require no communication with Him. Christ died so that he could repair the relationship between God and man. He tore the veil for a reason. If he wanted us to continue the traditions that enable automated worship, then he would have kept the veil intact in front of the holy of holies.

Spirit led giving is an opportunity for God to confront you individually about your giving, and an opportunity for you to listen. What a boring relationship would i have with my wife if all my deeds were spelled out in my vows. A romantic relationship is spontaneous, sacrificial, and creative. If you were to treat your spouse the same way you treat God with your tithe, i believe many of you would be sleeping on the couch.

It takes work, communication, and listening to understand and hear what my wife’s desires are. I give my unknown acquaintances the same fruit cake year after year for Christmas. But the reason why i can give my wife things that mean something is because “I KNOW HER“. Do you know God? Tithing is just like that stale fruitcake you give to that person year after year. The absence of a personal relationship is an excuse to forgo sacrifice, creativity, and spontaneity.

Same time, every week pagans come to their stone god and present a sacrifice. They don’t know if that’s what the Buddha wants, because he is dead and his memories are made of stone. On this note, Christians are great at pagan worship because we forget that our God is actually living as well. We have an opportunity to communicate with a living God, but instead we are satisfied with returning every week with the same gifts, even though God is looking for something else. He might as well be stone because somewhere between his lips and our ears His requests seem to hit some mortar.

Tithing can be an escape route to avoid communication with God- “I don’t have to talk to God, nor do I have to come face to face with his holiness. All i do is just sign my name on that line, and now I have one thing accomplished without even confronting God!”

We have to ask ourselves if tearing the veil to the the access of the throne room of God was actually intentional?

Spirit led giving is a great opportunity to pursue what God wants you to do with His money. Many of us hate confrontation, and even more of us hate confrontation with a holy, powerful God. Spirit Led giving requires us to counsel with God on our giving. Sure, a set standard, such as tithing, can eliminate the battle with excuses, but it cannot eliminate greed that dwells in your heart.

5. Spirit led giving does not appease the hearts of those who could afford more than 10%

Tithing kind of works like an alibi. It’s the sort of evidence you present to the defense proving that you are innocent. Not that you couldn’t have done more, but who could point the finger at you and exclaim, ‘guilty’. You paid your tithe, so you are covered.

If i believe my tithe protects me from the curse and the devourer, then why would i care to give more than 10%? But if i believed in Spirit led giving, i have no security blanket to protect my conscience from poor giving. Either I will have to ignore God and my conscience, or will need to give what God is telling me to. Tithing is not there to fall back on as a safety net.

More would be able to pay off debt

I’ve written a few blog posts already about tithing and debt, but this always needs to be reiterated. Tithing, while in debt, does not protect your testimony from poor stewardship. Actually it would just prove that you have a problem with money leaving your pockets too often. You are not a good steward if you serve God with your tithe and yet you also are a slave to debt. You cannot serve two masters.

I’d rather that you pay off debt, and learn from the guilt and embarrassment while you are empty handed as the offering goes by. Tithing does not teach good budgeting skills, nor can it promise to teach you self control. Get your budget and spending under control first, because that’s what the world will see. Then begin to enhance your giving. We are so worried about what Johnny Steeple and Mary Chapel are thinking about us in the church. The world does not need to see you giving tons of money to the church while ignoring practical stewardship principles. They are going to think you are in a cult ;)

One story i always state as a reminder to tithing while in debt. Remember the master who left 3 servants with talents while he went away. The first two servants invested their talents and gave the master more than their initial amount. The third servant buried his talent and gave all of it back to his master. The thing to remember is that the third servant, who gave 100% of it back to his master, was considered the ‘wicked’ one.

6. People would connect more closely with one another

I would consider this point more on the un-obvious side, but i believe is of crucial importance. This is one of the things that i’ve struggled with whenever i began Spirit led giving. Believing in Spirit led giving is all fine and dandy, but how do i find out where to give my money to? Certainly God wasn’t going to start appearing to me in dreams or paint a message in the sky. Praying does help to bring some ideas to mind, but that can’t just be it.

Shortly after practicing freewill giving, i began to realize that i needed to find out what other’s needs were. Before, i didn’t know about many financial needs. I didn’t really worry about it either. The church leaders were the ones with that job. I just gave them my tithe and they worried about it. But now, i have to connect with my brothers and sisters to find out their needs. I need to know how they are struggling.

I’m no counselor but most of us have something to contribute whenever we speak with one another about problems in our life. For many of us we can help by paying for someone’s gas to work, or pay for books for school . . .etc. Tithing doesn’t require us to be socially intelligent with our giving. All we have to do is drop it in the plate. There’s no need to listen to your brothers financial problems because you already gave your tithe away anyway and there’s nothing you can do about it.

Spirit led giving forces me to connect one-on-one with my brothers & sisters. I need to hear what issues they are dealing with in life. I  need to know if money would help them start up a ministry. Spirit led giving requires me to be in tune with those in my spiritual family. This also requires my senses to be on alert. I am more aware of physical needs around me now that i am free to give towards anything. I was so narrow minded prior to Spirit led giving

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New Blog Category for Questions

Thursday, April 30th, 2009

I don’t know why i have never done this before, but i finally started a new blog category listed on the right that will list many of the questions i receive through email or elsewhere about stewardship and tithing.

Here’s the first question for this category.

Q: We need to get caught up on our debts and pay them off. My husband insists that we still pay tithes and offerings instead of paying them off. Is he right?

A: Absolutely not.

How can you serve both the master of debt, and also serve God with gifts? You can’t serve God while you are a slave to debt. There is no guarantee of a reward of money to pay off your debt just because you paid the tithe and offering first.

My parents paid tithing for 20 years, and i can tell you that in the end they were still in $30,000 in credit card debt. Their tithe over those years was equivalent to about $100,000. I believe a wise steward would pay 70,000 in tithes and offerings and used the other 30,000 to stay out of debt.

God doesn’t look at the amount. He looks at your heart, which will fall in line with a sacrificial giving attitude. But he’s not happy with poor stewardship regardless of your worthy giving habits. Remember, it was the servant in Matthew 25:14-30 who gave 100% back to his master that was considered a wicked servant and a bad steward.

Living in debt, outside of investment purchases such as schooling, mortgages, transportation, and business purchases, is poor stewardship. I’m not trying to get you to be divisive with your husband, by all means, come to an agreement together; but please be persuasive that tithing does not exempt you from the curse of poor stewardship.

In the end. Remember that you can’t properly serve both masters.

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Have Debt? Start Tithing

Friday, February 20th, 2009

Oh yes, another example of someone getting out of debt by tithing. Read the story here “CBN.com“.  I have to be careful here, because i do believe God honors faith, as well as sacrificial giving, which means that i believe giving 10% isn’t the only way to receive blessing. According to the story, apparently, a couple has paid of $125,000 worth of debt since they started tithing. I do not doubt that God’s blessing is upon them, i just wish people do not think that tithing is the magical bullet for their lives.

For every tithing success story, you could probably find  an equal story where an individual is tithing and getting in even more debt then before. In my tithing testimony you will read that my own family suffered the consequences of debt, and legalistic tithing. People don’t understand that God blesses the sacrifice not the animal. So it isn’t because this couple reached the 10% benchmark, that God decided to finally bless them. It’s the sacrifice that they made that God blessed.

I’m not preaching another form of the health/wealth gospel here. God’s word says he blesses faith. I couldn’t tell you the form that your blessing will come in, or even if it is now or in eternity, but God does reward faith, not that personal gain is why you should give.

Many more have gotten out of debt, through practical stewardship principles rather than waiting for the windows of heaven to open up. Typically, money doesn’t fall from the sky. Usually, financial planning is the key to financial success. There are no tricks to being wealthy, or even financially stable. There is only planning, and implementing.

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Church rethinks its role

Wednesday, February 11th, 2009

The quotes i am about to write in this blog almost don’t sound real. The original news article is found at PressTelegram.com. You can see for yourself how the Church is way off track with what our mission is suppose to be. For those of you who don’t want to read the article, the basic premises is that a church is in a lot of debt, and they don’t have a lot of money to pay for it. So they are contemplating turning their facility into a community center so they can attract more revenue in order to keep their doors open. So let’s start blowing your mind. Here are the quotes from this article.

Mind boggling statement #1

“I’ve perceived a real need for a center in the community” . . .

. . .  “We’ve seen the facility as a real potential asset for the community as a whole”

Mind boggling statement #2

“The answer may be found in what other communities nationwide have called “adaptive reuse” of churches that have opened their doors to community purposes in order to survive.”

Mind Boggling statement #3

“I am of the opinion that some of the ideas that have worked across the country in adaptive reuse could work here if there is a proper process in educating the community and allowing the community to participate.”

Why does it all of a sudden become a necessity to be involved in community, when you face extinction? How messed up have we been if now we realize that we should start being an asset to the community around us? Since when did we realize that our doors need to be opened to community? And finally, since when did we realize that educating and allowing the community to participate was a good idea?

Holy, stinkin moley! Are you kidding me? These church leaders all of a sudden received an epiphany about their relevancy in the community? Being relevant is hardly about whether you’ve got the right clothing styles, modern worship band, great equipment, and a nice place to gather. I can tell you that as a parent, if simulating my child’s wardrobe and music mixes makes me relevant than that’s the last thing on my list to do.

The definition of relevant is: “Having a bearing on or connection with the matter at hand.” What specific matters does the church have a good bearing on right now? I’m sure we have a good hold on the “cool” matter. I’m sure we have a good hold on the “big and popular” matter. I’m sure we’ve done a great job connecting the Godly culture with the wordly culture. But what matters should we actually have a bearing on? That’s the relevant question we should be answering.

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Sermons for Stewardship Month

Friday, January 2nd, 2009

Stewardship MonthJanuary is typically the beloved stewardship month for all churches. It’s the month where all the building projects and dreams are laid out on the table, and drooled over. This is also the month where tithing sermons are preached on the most. I can prove this because i see a spike in my statistics letting me know that more people are searching for stewardship or tithing sermons on google.

The majority of all tithing sermons are given during this month alone. I can understand the influence that greed has on everyone’s life, but considering stewardship goes far past the aspect of giving, let’s get into something a little more appropriate during our economy. Here are four sermon topics besides giving, that you can preach on each Sunday during Stewardship month.

  1. Saving

    I think there are some out there that are against saving for the long term like retirement. That’s simply because they feel that Christ could return at any moment, and that whole time you have had money sitting in an account somewhere. I’m not gonna get into that because i think it’s just foolish thinking.

    Saving is so important today more than ever. You can’t rely on your job tomorrow, and you can’t rely on social security and your pension when you retire. You may never get a pension, and social security in some way will be revised or broke by that time. The bible says that the parents are in charge of laying up for their children. This is an earthly task with spiritual authority. Your children need you to be wise with your money. It gets tougher and tougher in this world to make it, and our children need our help.

  2. Debt

    I don’t think that i need to explain why this is an important topic. Really what can i say here? We all know how crucial debt has been in destroying our homes and economy. During this month start a stewardship class. Dave Ramsey, and Crown Financial have some very good materials and courses that will jump start your church into financial freedom. After all, the less debt they have the more they can offer God.

    If you are a pastor in unsecured debt and you would struggle with preaching this topic to your congregation, well, admit your struggles, don’t pretend that you have no vices, and preach on debt anyways. If your church is in major debt, then this would be a perfect opportunity for you to take serious looks at your church budget, and find out how you can cut back.

  3. Budgeting

    This is usually the root of the problem of the above two points. I’m sure you’ve heard the statement: “If you fail to plan, you plan to fail”. I have to admit, i hate budgeting. I am not a numbers guy. They do not excite me. I received a “D” in accounting when i took it way back in highschool. I have to admit also that i know budgeting gets even worse when you are in debt, or have no money because it is depressing to open up your books and see your situation over and over and over. No one wants to remind themselves about the pennies that they have left in their account. We just want to close our eyes and hope that we make it from paycheck to paycheck. Become disciplined with this challenge, and force yourself to do it.

  4. Faith and Trust

    To me this is the most important of all the topics. We need to trust God. We need to ask him to help us. We need help if we have an abundance, and we need help if we have a lack. I know many of us are “living on a prayer”. We don’t know how we are going to make it, and yet we look back, and here we are. I sincerely don’t know how my family has made it this far. I tell you what, if i could explain how i’ve made it this far, then that means God had nothing to do with it. It is important to build your faith and your trust in God in regards to finances.

I guarantee that if you preach on these four topics and God’s people righteously act upon them; you won’t have to preach on giving. Giving will automatically flow – not that money in the Church bank account is the motivation to preach on these sermons. As a church, be wise with your money. Be free to give, and share. God blessed your church to bless others. I just wrote a post about some giving statistics the other day that reveals how ungenerous churches really are. Don’t be a selfish church that spends 85% of their resources on themselves.

Does anyone have any other topics that they think would be good sermons? If not, what are your thoughts on the points above?

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Foreclosure, Tithing, & Guilt

Thursday, September 25th, 2008

Just read the blog on reuters that addresses the God before mortgage crisis in which people would rather tithe than lose their house. Consider my post a continuation from the last post. The author stated on Reuters how he had trouble finding anyone who would give their name and publicly announce that they are foreclosing on their home so that they can continue to give to God.

I find that very interesting, cause normally tithers are very bold about their life long decision to tithe. If they think their tithing decision is truly making God happy, then people are always more than willing to share their story and give their name. Even as they foreclose their house, usually feelings of persecution usher into their minds as they strain and stand up to do God’s tithing will, amidst their crisis. You will never have trouble finding a name or a person who tithes, but finding a name from a tither who is foreclosing on their house, now that’s like pulling teeth.

It’s not as if he couldn’t find these people. No, he could. They just wouldn’t give their names. This is interesting indeed. Granted losing your house is embarrassing. But why all the embarrassment if you are doing what is right by tithing? Unless, these people truly do think that their decision is foolishness. What does the bible say?

Psalms 37:21
The wicked borrows and does not repay, But the righteous shows mercy and gives.

This is where these people are stuck. They know that what they are going to do with their house is wrong, but on the other hand, they feel that not tithing is wrong as well. I feel bad for these people. I really do. It is sad to me. Besides the fact of what this is doing to their family, it is said at what the world sees. The world doesn’t care about whether you tithed or not this Sunday. Not that i care what the world thinks in the wrong way, but God does call us a light on a hill for a reason.

What a testimony. We talk about a God who paid the debt for everyone, but we show them our stubbornness to pay our own financial debts. How is God glorified through your financial negligence, but honored through your tithing? You cannot justify one over the other. There are many people out there who are in legitimate debt that they cannot afford to pay. I understand that, so i am not talking about those people.

Through it all, my guess for why nobody wanted to share their name in that news article is because people know what they are doing is not right, but they use tithing as a spiritual quest to appease their guilty conscience. People need to stop tithing & get out of debt.

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