What are your thoughts and emotions after seeing a video like this?
Before i post my comments, vote on your initial thoughts and emotions on this video.
Loading ...Videos like this are all over the internet. I’m referring to videos of tithing testmonies about how miracle money arrived in the mail a week or even 1 day after they tithed. I think i feel lots of things after i see videos like this. I guess frustration, anger, and annoyance are a few.
FRUSTRATION, because i’ve worked hard to get people to see the truth and yet the opposition that promotes false teachings are still going at it. Frustration also because there’s no logic in their tithing testimony, so how do you convince someone’s emotional experiences have blinded them from the real truth? As far as they know, they couldn’t be any more convinced about what they believe then they do now.
ANGER, because an emotional ploy is used to convince others of the promise of tithing rather than using biblical analysis to do the talking. Anger because i see even more testimonies that are exactly opposite of this and yet you don’t hear those testimonies. You don’t hear the testimony of those going in debt; or those being ripped off by a pastor; or those sacrificing everything for their church and yet, leave nothing for their children. Anger, because tithing is a false teaching that fleeces the sheep. Sometimes i wonder if God is angry too? Is it his patience or his grace that stops him from striking down lightning on the wolves in sheep’s clothing?
ANNOYANCE, because tithe teachers are like a sore thumb. I’m so tired of hearing their same old, worn out arguments that can’t hold a drop of water. Annoyed because i have to get on here and expose lies and write about the truth more than i should have to. Annoyed, because i’m sick of sounding like a broken record repeating the same arguments to the same people who can’t give answers to why they believe in tithing.
I feel your frustration.
I used to be a deacon in our local congregation a few years ago when I ran across Russell Kelly’s book, Should The Church Teach Tithing. (http://foxyurl.com/nwn)
I thought I’d read it because it had to be wrong and I could teach our people how to avoid the mistakes of this book. As a deacon, it was my holy responsibility to teach God’s call to give and to be obedient to the tithe.
To my utter amazement, God used this book to strip the lies of this teaching away and humble me from my religious piety. And so started a 4 year journey of where I’m at today.
When I see videos like the one above, my heart breaks. That young man is obviously sincere and thinks that because he gave some money to his church that God gave him $1200. It makes me sad that he doesn’t see how small that makes God.
Anyways, keep up the good fight! I enjoy your articles and videos!
Videos like this neither prove nor disprove tithing.
I don’t personally appreciate this type of thing (I prefer sense to sensationalism) but I don’t question the sincerity of the individual in the vid or the people who made it.
And, tithing is not a crime. It doesn’t destroy people. I don’t know of anyone who went broke or left their family desitute because they consistently gave one tenth of their income to God.
I know a lot of people whose lives were wrecked because they were pitiful at managing their finances but it has been my experience that tithing properly done encourages more financial responsibility. Tithing or not tithing won’t do anything for a financial slob.
But, I do know a lot of pastors who worked for little to nothing and could ill afford to retire. They had social security only, in some cases without a house because they lived their entire ministry in a church owned parsonage.
Abuse by Christian leaders does happen but it is no excuse not to tithe. When government officials misappropriate government funds we don’t stop paying our taxes do we?
And, BTW, I can’t be sure that God didn’t provide the $1200 dollar gift to the man in the video nor can you. You better careful whose sincerity you malign. Jesus called that judging others and He condemned it.
I posted a response to this today on the Do More Ministry blog: http://blogs.lifeway.com/blog/domoreministry/2009/07/the-validity-of.html.
Good conversation!
EnnisP,
I didn’t mean for it to seem like God couldn’t possibly be blessing him. Although i do NOT believe in the tithing mandate, i believe that God blesses both non-tithers and tithers because of their faith and sacrifice, not because they feared Malachi 3:10.
- jared
I don’t think fear is a good motivator but the right kind of fear should be developed by every Christian. Proverbs mentions “the fear of the Lord” favorably several times.
It is very much like the fear I have of my wife. I am very afraid to do anything that would offend her, upset her, insult her or anything that would upset our relationship. Everything I do affects that relationship even the way I manage money.
The same is true with God. I don’t know how we can maintain the right relationship without including God on a regular basis in the budget and if we do that, howe much do we allow?
Obviously, I do believe in tithing but if that, for some reason, was proven wrong I believe there would be something concrete in its place. But, the answer to tithing is not always forth coming. I am hesitant to argue against a historical practice without putting something else in its place.
I have asked several non-tithers what they recommend and so far nothing specific is offered. I did, however, appreciate the post Ben offered.
EnnisP,
Your should read the book by John Macarthur called, “Whose Money is it Anyway?”. John Macarthur is against the tithe mandate and explains how New Testament giving should be in its place.
- jared
I feel it was coincidence.
I was tithing faithfully until I lost me job and I bounced checks and lost friendships.
Tithing doesn’t work; its too easy for the rich and too hard on the poor.
Galatians 3:13 “Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law and was cursed for us”.
On that tree he became a curse and took our punishments.
If we have been redeemed from the curse the law then we are no longer cursed by not keeping Mosaic laws which included the tithe. This means that the Old Testament Malachi 3:3 curse no longer applies because Jesus took our curses and paid in full our debts.
Jesus BC and AD make a world of difference! Jesus kept all laws in our place and our right standing with God is not by works but by faith in Him and his finished work! I Believe it and received it and am more blessed than when I was trying to work for (blessings) it myself. God gets all the glory and my burdens and all cares are his not mine.
To Ennis; the fear of the Lord is not the same as fearing your wife.The knowledge of the fear of the Lord is taught by the Holy Spirit.All a saint has to do to receive this knowledge is ask.Ps.25:12-15 also check out Eph.5:21.By the way tithing is UN-New Testment.Therefore tithing has been disproved.
Kevin,
If you want knowledge of any kind, even the knowledge of God, you will need to do more than ask.
Ennis;You are entitled to your theory. In the Gospels The Lord said “ask”. Jesus said “ask” in His Name.1st John says “whatsoever we ask”. Clearly asking is required to be heard (unless handicapped). Moses & Jesus said out of the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses let every word be established.i have my 3 in Jesus,Paul & John.That is why your opinion is theory because it cannot be proven by the Word.
And you came up with all these references only by asking?
Enis,
I know what you were trying to convey regarding fearing God people pick at the smallest things. Fearing God is to hold God in such high esteem of reverence that a person is careful to regard Him highly in everything they do. Reverence & highly esteeming God so much that it determines one’s thoughts and action is the same as fearing God in the verse “to fear God is the beginning of wisdom”.
I do however, think forced tithing is very harmful for the following reasons
It takes the Glory and Praise away from the finished works of Christ on the cross and gives the credit to the Tither. All good that comes about is credited to the action of tithing or any bad that comes about is credited to non-tithing.
Forced tithing does not give the correct image of God who is the only perfect Father that His children unconditionally for no other reason than His own goodness & love.
Many people have a performance based relationship with loved one. They will never learn to be set free from having to perform for acceptance.
People need to be impacted by what was accomplished by Christ on that cross and the meaning of Grace (undeserved favor).
“Since God did not spare His one and only Son but gave Him up for us all, won’t He with Him freely give us all things?” Romans 8:32
While we were still sinners Christ died for us. God therefore proved His loved for His children was not conditional. The Mosaic law was to point man’s helplessness to keep it and the Lords power to fulfill them all for us.
Anonymous,
Firstly, thanks for the spirit of your comment. I appreciate the absence of abuse or insult or dismissiveness.
On the issue of law vs grace we agree, generally, but I think it gets overplayed in discussions about what we should or should not do relative to life principles.
Tithing proponents do come across commanding, demanding, manipulative and sensational (I don’t like it either) and non-tithers make too much of it. In fact, I have known non-tithers to be just as manipulative. We both agree that legalism should be done away with.
There are certain laws, however, that are universal and very good for us. The law of gravity to name one physical law and the law of reaping and sowing which applies on every level, physical, emotional, mental and spiritual.
If I sow generosity I will reap the same in kind. That isn’t the prosperity doctrine it is Scripture. But, the question is, how much must a gift be to qualify as generous? We need to give dimensions to this and I think the concept of tithing does that.
I don’t think it denies grace to teach this and it always requires grace to do it consistently.
I don’t believe it is any more ungracious to give dimensions to our financial responsibilities than it is to give dimensions to safeguard us against gravitational dangers. Financial issues should get more attention. Gravity causes less trouble.
And, I know very few “grace givers” who give less than ten percent. So I find it strange that so much time is spent on trying to dispel the tithing concept and to assassinate those who teach it.
Ennis
Wow! you called it (verbal) assassination to correct and rebuke false tithe that are teaching a mentally harmful erroneous doctrine. Are you sitting on both sides of the fence on this? You sound a little like a Politican. What did Jesus say about a little leaven and how it spread.
I am not against tithing just forced tithing that teaches that God must be paid for His Favor. When Jesus paid the only payment that is required for our favor. Of course if you give you will be blessed but doesn’t the motive have to be correct. Read what Jesus said about the Pharisee tithers, who were still under the law, he had no praise for their tithing, in every case he mentions their tithing.
Our Relationship with the Lord based is not based on our financial performance. This does damage to the nature of Gods unconditional love for his body. Any doctrine that negates grace diminishes the blood of Christ.
Was the Apostle Pauls strong words to the Law keepers in Galatians verbal abuse? Maybe you should read what the Apostle Paul said about people trying to keep the laws and circumcision. There is no middle ground of compromise with the truth!
Anon,
Tithing proponents have been called liars (I’m sure the grace principle allows that), accused of being blind, called ignorant, stubborn and so on. The motives of tithers is also impugned. I think that qualifies as assassination.
Arguments for tithing have been rebutted by calling them absurd, ridiculous or dismissed with a laugh.
And Mr. Tithe’s answer to people with money problems is a simple, “yes, stop tithing” as if tithing is the reason people get into financial trouble. I am amazed he would suggest it and even more amazed that others would praise him for it.
I’m not a counselor but I have always understood that a good counselor attempts to get all the facts before announcing the solution.
And how you handle finances has a huge impact on your relationship to God. If you don’t think so read Matthew 6:19-34. Jesus clearly made the point that God must come first particularly in the area of mammon.
You folks often give the impression that OT law is something bad but that is not what Jesus taught. He fulfilled the demands of the law in our place but He didn’t eliminate the law. It isn’t the means of our righteousness but it is still the standard. No one can live up to it entirely but I would certainly never encourage any one not to try.
I wonder what you do with all the other laws: adultery, theft, lying, murder and so on? Those off the books now also?
BTW, the people Paul addressed in Galatians were those who made the law the means of salvation not those who honored it in spite of salvation. He also came down firmly on fornicators in 1 Corinthians 5. That was an OT legal issue? How do you explain that?
EnnisP,
I’m gonna tell you to stop tithing regardless of whether you are in debt or not.
Do you see a difference between ceremonial laws, such as the passover, and eternal laws, such as adultery? Are you really not familiar with differentiating between ceremonial and eternal laws?
God’s eternal laws, are what God is- it’s part of his character. That’s why tithing (10% giving) is not eternal, and only a ceremonial standard.
We know not to commit adultery because God wouldn’t. We know not to steal because God wouldn’t.
What about tithing? Do we know to tithe because God would? Um, Hello! God gave his only possession, his one and only begotten Son. He gave his firstfruit, the very best, first, and ‘all’ of what he had at the time. So, that’s what we should know. Did God give a tithe? Would he expect his children to follow in His footsteps or Abraham’s?
And we know to give because God gave and we know that 10% is a reasonable starting point because God gave much much more (not to mention all the examples in Scripture to suggest this is the common understood practice before and during the law and NOTHING in the NT suggests this principle has been dissolved by grace.)
Are you suggesting that the principle of giving is not eternal. Jesus did say it is more blessed to give than to receive. And, if it is eternal maybe we should put it at the beginning of our budget not at the end which is what you suggested.
“Spend your money freely to begin with and at the end see what amount you can give to God which will not upset the bank balance.” According to you God’s part is calculated by what is left IF there is any. If not don’t worry about it.
And, the Passover “ceremony” is not now observed but the principle of the Passover is still valid. Last I checked, we still point to Jesus, the Lamb slain, who takes away the sin of the world.
When people come out of a Cult and are set free from a cultic mindset deprogramming happens by repetition of the truth, so again here I go: There is nothing wrong with voluntarily giving a tenth to support your Church. However, it is wrong to mandate tithing with fear tactics and verbally beating people up along with half scaring them to death that God will curse them if they don’t.
False teaching is harmful to the body of Christ and will not hold up in the long wrong as people will eventually discover the truth.
It is not right to scare people into tithing and then call it paying God his tenth. Tithing is being taught to people to cause them to feel they are earning a blessing because they have paid for it. Notice how they use the word “paying” (tithes). When the promise of the overflow blessings does not come and people lose jobs, homes etc this teaching will eventually backfire and may even cause doubts and resentments about the character of God.
Gentiles of the New Testament Church were never given the Mosaic laws but were later grafted into the New Covenant with God by Grace alone through faith in Christ alone.
Ephesians 2:15 “He (Jesus) abolished the Jewish Law with its commandments and rules in order to create out of two races one new people in union with Himself”.
The Key words are “Abolished the Jewish law and its commandments” (meaning that law keeping is No longer the Way to a Covenant with God for His Favor & blessings). Our favor, wealth, healing etc is included in our Salvation package. Also tithing was food not silver or gold.
EnnisP,
God entrusted us to be stewards, not just givers. Remember it was the servant in Matthew 25 who gave 100% of his master’s money back, that was considered wicked and lazy.
“Spend your money freely to begin with and at the end see what amount you can give to God which will not upset the bank balance.” – EXCUSE ME! PLEASE DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUYTH. i thought you were more civil and reasonable to say something like that, but apparently your pre-conceived judgments about anti-tithers spout out accusations that views my God as a second thought in my life.
The problem is EnnisP, that you see giving as the foundation of stewardship principles, but when you are a slave to other things in your life, such as debt and materialism, then i would perceive that our 10% stewardship practices are like vomit in our master’s eyes.
Last i checked, we commemorate the Lord’s death according to a NT command, not according to animal sacrifices that were given prior to Moses law.
Tithe,
These are your words…
“My parents paid tithing for 20 years, and i can tell you that in the end they were still in $30,000 in credit card debt. Their tithe over those years was equivalent to about $100,000. I believe a wise steward would pay 70,000 in tithes and offerings and used the other 30,000 to stay out of debt.”
$30,000.00 over 20 years works out to be $125 a month. How could you avoid being over budget each month by that amount if you didn’t pay your offering at the end of the month AFTER you have spent freely on other things.
I doubt they were living close to the absolute need line if they accumulated $30,000 in debt so it would be a push to suggest that $125 represented anything other than over consumption. In other words, enjoy yourself fully and pay God what ever you have left.
That detail is found in your question post. I’m just following your lead.
EnnisP,
We had 8 children in our family. My parents sent us to a private Christian School. My dad had a blue collar job. That is how you spend so much money. We never had a fancy car. We didn’t have a nice house. I lived in the ghetto. We always had food. We never had any fancy clothes, or nice shoes. But my parents obviously struggled between the battle of providing the necessities to their children and giving 400/month in tithes.
My family didn’t have the luxury of paying ourselves fully first. That was never the case. My father always paid God first, and then did what he could for his family. I look back as a parent myself, and do not know how i am here today.
I could count with both my hands the number of times my family went out to eat.
if i follow your lead, it is ok to serve two masters. On one hand i have debt, on the other i have God. I’m not talking about serving materialism and God. I’m talking about serving debt and God. There are some people who just cannot tithe!
If i accumulated a bunch of foolish unsecured debt, and wanted to give to God, i personally would pay my debt first. How can we be happy with wasting God’s money in interest rates just because we gave some money to the Church? How can you think that being wise with God’s money is not a form of paying God?
In our previous discussion, you talked about adultery, and stealing. Do you think these are eternal laws just because you see them forbidden before, during, and after the law. Is that the litmus test to determine if a law is eternal?
I have a lot of respect for your parents. I hope you haven’t convinced them they were wrong and I think you and your siblings could help out with some of the debt.
I’m also curious about the school situation. We sent our kids to a private Christian school also and because we were tithing members we got reduced fees. In fact, what we paid in tithes was less than the amount by which the fees were reduced. That represents a return on the tithe before it is given.
We do agree, however, that unnecessary debt is a bad thing and should be avoided wherever possible but we differ on the solution. Tithing is not the only reason people accumulate debt and shouldn’t be the only line of correction.
The only absolute way to avoid debt is to not spend the money. I think you are wrong to recommend people eliminate the tithe first.
All truth is eternal and we are able to identify it whenever God gives us enough evidence/information at any point in the Bible to establish it as such. Once done, nough said. Beyond that, a person is only being contrary to require more or suggest something different.
EnnisP,
We could sit here all day and figure out whether or not my parents could afford 10%. But whether they could or couldn’t afford it is apart from the decision of whether tithing is required or not.
So maybe you should leave the emotional tactics and name calling out of the discussion.
Don’t remember slandering you with name calling, but the emotional tactics have a purpose. Even though they almost have nothing to do with proving that tithing is or is-not commanded.
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