you better go back and read the Bible again. Jesus did teach a lot about money. I’m not going to tell you where to look, because you need to do your homework. God bless.

The giving stats are mind boggling. Al I may be more leinient on getting paid but you seem to use the word tithes as acceptable and that is fine in Jesus. Your words sound like those of John the babtist “He must increace but I must decrease.” And I test the docrines that I encounter and the last thing I give to any Christian Speaker is my money. That goes to my home ministries first and then out from my home. Sending ones kids to Christian School and taking care of family members is taxing. I love that I can help praise Jesus.

The raw numbers of over 100 billion given to Christian ministries and orgainzations is astouding!So little ends up in the hands of the poor. I too am not much of a giver due to my large debt load and I have not gone bankrupt yet. However today I gave to a young man standing in front of a store he asked for fifty cents. I told him to wait. I came back and gave him a dollar with a smile and I said “This is in the name of Jesus!” Now that person may choose to squander my money but considering that so many Christian orgianizations foster entitlments amongst so called leadership my message to the young man was cost effective.

When I give to my broke realitives friends and family, the homless or pan handlers 20 or 30 times a year I always try to mention the name of Jesus to make it a commertial for Jesus. If Jesus tells you to do the same pleas do not give silent. Give in the name of Jesus to the folks that ask.
May Jesus make us all less selfish this year. Happy new year friends.

Christ in Us.

Dear Freewillgiver,I have tithed for almost 10rs until I asked the Lord to help me study His word concerning tithing about Febuary this year.

Our God is a real gentleman, if we dont ask him specific questions He wont bother us.Please I strongly recomend that you do not just take anybodys teaching or preaching without checking what the bible says.

The scriptures clearly teaches us that we are not allowed to use the gospel for PROFIT or a MONEY MAKING BUSINESS,not even a MEANS OF LIVELIHOOD. (1Timothy 6:5 AMP)Many pastors,evangelist,teachers that I know, beleive that they are allowed to make a living from the gospel,they beleive God wants them to be rich and have all the material things that the world are lusting for.Paul received all his revelations from the Holy Spirit and the Lord put it in the bible for us to learn from.Please do not ignore Pauls instructions they were given to protect us from the enemy.

Jesus taught His disciple to discern everyone by examining their fruit and what comes out of their mouths.He also warned us about the DECEITFULNESS OF RICHES.

Our faith is the key to Gods blessings not old covenant laws that the Jews found impossible to keep.The law was given by Moses to Jews that were not even born again.Please understand this,THE NEW COVENANT IS BASED ON GRACE,THE OLD COVENANT WAS BASED ON THE JEWS OBEDIENCE.

Jesus enables us to give and support His work on earth financially with the power of the Holy Spirit through His GRACE ONLY LEST ANY MAY GLORY IN THE FLESH. The Jews tried to keep the law of Moses in their own strength.

Peace and Rest to you all

I agree that Jesus was very hostile to the Religious professionals of his day. Al Are you against Christian tithing? Pastors are only found once in the New Testament do you think that elder means Pastor? What do you think about Priest being elders or Teachers being elders, Prophets being elders, or missionaries being elders? Read my post to Frank and tell me where we agree and disagree if you have time. Explain how you disagree with the status quo of most Churches in America today if you have time.

I think the Body of Christ needs more families and friends and less organizational structures. I also believe that most traditional evangelical Christian leadership entitlements are mostly bad because they mostly work against friendships and families in Jesus.

How can one be a friend in Jesus when one expects 10% of another’s cash? This kind of unequal leadership sounds more like a worldly government like the state of California than the Body of Jesus Christ. We should be known for being friends and family instead of being people who go to a certain place regularly on Sundays and Wednesdays. Our traditions are not meant to be hostile but the entitlements and organizational structures tend to rob what the New Testament would consider normal Christian life in Jesus Christ.
The Body of Christ needs more neighbors, friends and family and less entitlements, demanded money tithes, and organizational structures.

Happy new year everyone.

The following shall be a long post maybe others will receive some of Jesus out of it. My thoughts are not systematic but if one suffers through this post you will get it. I even spell checked this post so yall is lucky but my grammar will be bad at times. I am African American and I do slip into Ebonics posting habits. This post is about every Christian being a priest in Jesus and against Christian tithing. Frank I will read your post again to catch the meanings behind your post. Do you believe that Christians must give ten percent to certain Christian leaders? I suspect from your post that you do not. Please spell that out more clearly if you have time because that is at the heart of this blog.

Happy New year everyone including Frank. Friends If Christians have love they will support those who do the most work for Jesus. A good leader makes and trains loving priest who fellowship and give naturally. All Christians are priest. Never did the New Testament clearly define Pastors as Elders. Evangelist, Teachers or Prophets could be elders, evangelist, and prophets and so on. Do we disagree? Merry Christmas and a happy new year. Frank I think you read into my post correctly that I am against traditional leadership structures found in most evangelical fellowshipping congregations. I think this blog Challenges all Churches and leaders. I was once a paid Presbyterian youth leader the last time I called someone pastor believing that my labeling of them meant something important. True pastors are like Jesus and suffer to help the poorest and those without the gospel. True pastors get persecuted greatly. Jesus told the most spiritual to expect the entitlement of persecution suffering and loss. This is mentioned over and over in the New Testament. Jesus did not promote entitlements of money to Christian leaders. It is amazing when folks find things to support the status quo of entitled professional Christian leadership in the New Testament.

Frank and every Christian leader, the word Pastors is only found once in the New Testament. American leaders find money entitlements behind the titles of Elder and Pastor. The word pastor is not found at all in most English translations. Why not teachers missionaries evangelist and prophets also be entitled to money? Heck, why not find an entitlement to money for all Priests? How can one be sure that current meanings of Elders and pastors mean what our American traditional denominations pour into it? Take a look around our governments feel entitled to money and they are very inefficient at getting work done. In Jesus and in the New Testament all Christians are entitled to the love of Jesus. My definition of friends and family leadership can easily fit what is found in the New Testament and it is devoid of money entitlements. Please anyone correct me where I am wrong. Leaders are not entitled to money in Jesus.

Frank and Everyone, Here is a look at some false American Pastors. Historically many not all-American “pastors” owned Christian slaves. In this relationship many of the slaves should have been the real pastors to their American “pastor” owners. Jesus knows who they were. American Pastors helped to write our Constitution calling Black people 3/5ths of a person and by fighting 2 wars against the Christian British and other European nations for land. Many Christian pastors supported the stealing of land from the Christian Cherokee peoples and supported numerous wars against other Native peoples. The New Testament calls no Christian pastor specifically and I consider the label of Pastor the job of Jesus. He calls Christians evangelist and teachers. Now elders are brothers in Jesus who I as a priest can learn from their words and deeds. Jesus said I am the good Sheppard the good Sheppard lays his life down for the Sheep. A true Christian Pastor suffers greatest loss and expects the least worldly blessings. Are not missionaries to dangerous and impoverished countries the most like Paul and the Disciples? I respect them as pastors but pastor is not my label to give to anyone. Do you disagree with what I have just written?

I think church structure is enhanced by using the titles as much as the New Testament did. Christian friends and family are my Church fellowship and giving is based on need and relationships completely informal. Jesus the true pastor evangelist and teacher that I try to experience from my Christian friends and family. I do believe in Elders. Are you a professional Christian leader and what kind of Christian group is your regular fellowship? Friend I love that you took the time to make a thoughtful post that I agree with many parts but I don’t know exactly where to start with my disagreement.

I am not against Christians receiving money for work. Jared is not against Christians receiving money for work. I think you and I agree that the best Christians care the least about receiving money. That is true Christian leadership the leaders who are quick to volunteer for suffering and loss for the cause of Jesus.

Frank and everyone reading, where do we disagree friends please explain how what I postulate could go against the scriptures. I do know that folks who put a tithe envelope and teach about Christian’s necessity to tithe leave the impression that if folks do not offer 10% of their money they are in sin. In fact taking money from a friend who feels as if they must give 10% or be in sin is wrong even if the receiving leader did not make that person believe the 10% stuff. Thus all pastors not teaching against Christian tithing but leaving a tithe system in place in their congregations are wrong in my opinion. Do you feel the same? A true Christian fellowship should work like a true family. If my mother went to Mexico preaching for Jesus and was in prison I would bail her out. If my brother preached and was in danger and poverty like Paul preaching for Jesus, I would feel like an infidel if I did not help him. The Christians in the Bible were in need of money for their needs. I have encountered very many needy ministers in America.

The Gospels and the letters of the writers of the Testaments seem to indicate leaders in Christ should expect persecution more than any kind of money expectation. The leaders should expect to suffer the most in this world and have tribulations. This seems to be true for Jesus and Paul. Paul wrote about joy while in prison. Prisons of 2000 years ago would were like Hitler’s concentration camps. Even then Paul did not write leaders should expect payment. Paul and the other writers could have made it clear support Christian leaders financially or you are in sin. They did not.

If you have read this entire post then you have suffered for Jesus thank you all and have a happy new year being priest of Jesus and setting people free to love Jesus more.

Christ in US!

Peace to you all,Its very intresting to read our dear brother Frank Morrisons interpretation of Apostle Pauls letter to the churches.

First of all,Pauls letters to the churches stated that he worked making tents.Paul encouraged the churches to continiue in their “gift of giving”.We need to understand not all the churches operated in this gift.
Remember when Paul spoke about gifts in (1Corinthian12:1-11)Paul revealed that not all have the same gifts.Paul clearly teaches that not all can perform miracles,prophesy, healing or interpret unknown tongues,gift of faith,and other important gifts.

(2Corithian 8:6NLT)clearly stated that Paul was encouraging the Corinthian church to continiue in this special gift.I quote verse 6 Titus,who encourage your giving in the first place,to return to you and encourage you to finish this “MINISTRY OF GIVING”.
Paul knew that not all the churches operated in this gift.

The Holy Spirit guides and direct christians to ministers that need financial support who are walking by faith to give to what God is doing in their ministry.

Jesus warned us about wolves in sheeps clothing,(1Timothy 6:5AMP)says that christians or leaders beleive that the gospel is a “SOURCE OF PROFIT(A MONEY MAKING BUSINESS)A MEANS OF LIVELIHOOD” Paul warns,from such withdraw.That is a serious warning I think.

I am only pointing out to you what is in the bible,please dont get offended.We cant quote verse out of context.Paul wrote letters to the churches not single verses.

Please read complete letters by Paul to the churches not just a few lines and try to make a complete new theology from it that is self focus and manipulative.

Most Christians give financial support to the work of the Lord but please be careful, many wolves are deceiving the body of Christ because of greed and lust for money.

Not all pastors and leaders are God sent,listen to the Holy Spirit and He will guide you to where He wants you to give your financial support.

Grace to you all

“Don’t I have a right to stop making tents, or stop doing leather work?” As was his trade. After all, verse 7, he says, “Who goes to war at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and eats not its fruit? Who feeds a flock and eats not the milk of the flock?” I mean, there are some things that have in them built in remuneration. You don’t go to the war and try to hold a job on the side. You don’t raise a crop and not eat the results. You don’t have a herd and not enjoy the milk. “Say I these things as a man,” these are just human things, “but doesn’t the law of God say the same? Doesn’t it say in the law of God, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treads out the grain? Does God take care for oxen?” If God says in Deuteronomy 25 verse 4 you’re supposed to let the ox that treads the grain eat, don’t you think He cares about the one who provides your spiritual food as the ox provides your physical food? And isn’t a man more valuable than an ox? And isn’t a preacher more valuable than anyone?

If we have sown, he says in verse 11, verse 10 rather, or saith he it all together for our sakes, for our sakes, no doubt, that it is written that he that plows should plow in hope, and he that threshes in hope should be a partaker of his hope. You work and in your work is built in the hope of your remuneration. “If we have sown to you spiritual things, is it such a big deal if we reap your things?” In other words, if we give you the things of God, is it wrong for us to have back the things of this world so that we might live? “If others be partakers of this right over you, are not we rather who preach to you the Word of God (implied)? Nevertheless we have not used this right.” How about that. Twelve verses to have established the right to be paid and then he says, “But we don’t want it.” He says we have a right to it and I want to lay that down, but I choose not to take it so we don’t hinder the gospel of Christ. There was some exigencies in Corinth, there were some reasons why he didn’t want to be chargeable to them. He felt it would be better for the ministry so he said we have a right to it, and he establishes the right of every preacher and teacher in the future, every pastor and elder, every apostle and prophet in the future to be supported. But here he defers from that because, he says, we don’t want to hinder, and there were some reasons why in his mind that would be a hindrance so he cared for his own living. And as he says in 2 Corinthians chapter 11, “He robbed other churches.” In other words, he took money from other churches to fund himself to minister to the Corinthians because he didn’t want to be chargeable to them. If you know anything about their church, you might understand that. They were a tough bunch to work with and he didn’t need anything that might cause more criticism of his ministry. He was being very harsh with them, as it was, he didn’t want them accusing him of a money motive.

But verse 13 he picks up the same thought, “Do you not know that they who minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? They who wait on the altar are partakers with the altar? Priests function in their priesthood and are supported by that function itself. Even so….and here’s the climax…has the Lord ordained that they who preach the gospel should live of the gospel.” That does not mean, as you hear so often, if you preach it you ought to live it, that means if you preach it you ought to be supported in your preaching of it. You ought to be able to earn your living in your preaching.

So, here Paul affirms the idea that those who minister are to be supported in that ministry. However, he says, if you choose, as I choose-implied, that you can defer from that support for whatever reason you might have. For example, in writing to 1 Thessalonians, writing to the Thessalonians in the first letter he says, verse 9 of chapter 2, “You remember, brethren, our labor and travail, laboring night and day because we would not be chargeable unto any of you, we preached unto you the gospel of God.” We didn’t want to be chargeable so we worked night and day. He had to work his ministry all day, and he had to earn his living all night, but he did that because he chose to do it to make the gospel more palatable to them.

So we can safely say then that while the text of 1 Timothy says that the one who is an elder is to be honored, and that implies both respect and remuneration, there may be those circumstances when by God’s design and the prompting of the Spirit and the will of God there is a pastor/elder who chooses to earn his own living and that by God’s design certainly has a place in the plan. Should the time ever come when he feels that he would desire to pour himself whole-heartedly, totally and consume his life in the ministry, the church then should take over that remuneration. But as long as he feels it is the direction of God for him to be in employment where he is, the church has no obligation. The point here is we are to honor and give respect and remuneration where remuneration is due and where it is necessitated.

Now let’s go back to 1 Timothy chapter 5 and see if we can’t follow a little bit further through this thought. And I’ve just laid really the sort of the implicit underlying truth that elders are to be honored. When a man is an elder, just because he’s an elder or a pastor, same thing, he is due respect and whatever remuneration is fitting to supply his needs and expedite his level of service just because he is a pastor/elder. Now that is the underlying point, now mark this, but that is not Paul’s point here. That just sort of lies beneath the surface. What Paul is doing here is contrasting, or really comparing that with this, “Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honor, specially the ones who work hard in preaching and teaching.” The underlying assumption is that all pastors are to be honored, but Paul’s talking about the kind that are worthy of double honor, by contrast to the general category of pastors who are to be honored on a single honor level.

Notice the little phrase “double honor,” what does that mean? Well, it basically means generous ample pay, generous ample respect. The intent here is to show a difference between general category of pastors and a unique category of pastors who rule with great excellence and who work very hard in the preaching and the teaching. They are worthy of double honor. Double honor assumes as its comparative honor, so we say honor for elders, double honor for excellent hard-working elders. That’s the idea. The Spirit of God knows that among those who serve the church there will be a great group of faithful men who will serve the Lord with blessing, but there will also be a group of men who will serve the Lord with a greater effort and a greater commitment and a greater excellence and they are worthy of a greater acknowledgement, of honor from the congregations they serve. It’s not a mathematical equation here to figure out what the normal elder gets and double it, it’s the idea of ample generous support, remuneration and respect. All elders are worthy of it, some are worthy of more.

Now who are these who are worthy of double honor? Look back at verse 17. First of all, the elders that rule well…the elders that rule well. Now the word “ruling” means oversight, taking charge, giving leadership, having responsibility. Proistemi, the verb, means to stand first. They’re first in order in terms of leadership. It is a word used to speak of the father and the husband in the family, he is the leader. He is the one who stands first. He is the protector, the provider. So the elder is the one who leads, who stands first, giving the task of leading the church. It’s a tremendous responsibility, beloved, by the way, for all the privilege that is there you’re really overwhelmed by the accountability. As Hebrews 13:17 says, “We have to give an account to God for what we’ve done.”

But the emphasis is not on the verb ruling, the emphasis is on the adverb – well. And that adverb means with excellence. The elder, the pastor who leads with excellence. Now what would that be? How would we define excellence? I suppose we could go back to chapter 4 and we had in chapter 4 from verses 6 to 16 at least a pretty good insight into what excellence would be in leadership as Paul instructed Timothy. He said, verse 6, “If you put the brothers in remembrance of these things, you’ll be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and good doctrine, refusing profane and old women’s tales, exercising yourself to godliness.” And he talks about down in verse 11 teaching and commanding, in verse 12 living out an example, verse 13 giving your attendance to explaining the Word of God, verse 14 using your gift, verse 15 concentrating on all these things and into verse 16 summing it up, taking heed to yourself, your personal life, to your teaching, continuing in them and so forth. If we were to go back through all of that, which we did over several weeks, we would find the excellence of ministry is there. It is bound up in quality leadership. It is bound up in godliness in the life. It is bound up in teaching and explanation of Scripture and exhortation, setting a and example and pattern that others can follow.

When a man excels in his ruling, in his leading, he is to be given double honor. Now the point here, keep it in mind, is not to make a distinction between two kinds of elders, one kind who rule and one kind who teach and preach, there’s no such distinction made in Scripture. It is a contrast between elders worthy of honor and some elders worthy of double honor because of the excellency of their ministry. All serve, all lead, all teach and preach to one degree or another. Some may preach more than teach, some may teach more than preach, some may lead more than preach or teach, but they all do all of those to some degree. The contrast is not between ruling and teaching elders, there’s no such dichotomy, the contrast is between the general group of men and those who are a cut above because of the excellence of their ministry. I mean, double honor assumes honor. It’s not a contrast between all good elders and bad elders. The New Testament knows nothing of bad elders. As soon as you’re a bad elder you’re not an elder. As soon as you’ve sinned, you’re disqualified. So he’s not comparing holy elders and sinning elders because if holy elders were worthy double honor, then sinning elders would be worth honor. But since sinning elders are worthy nothing, you can’t be making comparison between sinning elders and excellent elders because if sinning elders are worthy nothing and good elders get double that, they get double nothing which is nothing. I mean, every way you look at it, and I’m pushing the point, the contrast is not between good and bad, it’s not between ruling and teaching, it’s between those elders who are faithful, worthy of honor, and those who are excellent, surpassing the others in their ministry. He is comparing the respect and remuneration due to all elders with those due to unusually committed and diligent pastor/elders.

And the verb “let be considered worthy,” which is the Greek text, reflects on a mental estimate. You evaluate them and let them be worthy of double honor. Now what he’s saying here is this isn’t a gift, you’re not saying we want to give this as a gift, we want to give you this as a reward, we want to give you this as an act of grace. The idea is they deserve it. Consider that if they do an excellent job, they are worthy of that. It’s not something you’re giving out of grace as a gift, it is something they have really earned, they are worthy of that because of the excellence of their leadership.