I’m just throwing this question out there cause i’m not sure what to conclude about it myself. When church doors close because of financial hardship is it good or bad? I know some of you are thinking immediately that its bad. But think about it. That’s one less mortgage bill that has to be paid and that’s more money towards the poor, and other needs.
Let’s face it, giving statistics state that 85% of what a church brings in is spent on the internal operation of the church. Let’s put this in perspective. If Paul was called to minister to the gentiles but he spent 85% of his time with the jews, how effective would Paul’s ministry be? Let’s put this another way, if God calls us to go and teach all nations, and seek and save the lost, but we spend 85% of our resources on ourselves, how effective can we be? The truth of the matter is that giving statistics state that the church only spends 3% on directly ministering to the unsaved.
Let’s ask the question again, if only 3% of a church’s resources are going towards ministering to the unsaved is it good or bad that a church closing its doors frees up the other 97%?
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Closing churches are bad – even if only 3% reaches unsaved (though i doubt that number bcoz 90% of church goers are mostly sunday – savers) and closing the church means these ppl wont have a place to quench thier spiritial and communial thirst.
First of all closing any church is bad because God commanded us to fulfill His work through the operation of a local church (Heb.10:25,I Cor.16:2). Secondly, from a practical standpoint, without the organization how is any money going to anybody? We buy things like Bible and tracts to hand out, which is the command of the commission. It is not feeding the poor. There are other places in the word of God where we are told to help the poor, but it is not the commission of the church to feed the poor. The church and the body of Christ are the same thing. The church is not the building. It is the body. Thirdly your question is ridiculous considering that not one dime would be given to anything without the organization of the local church. Although there are many things in churches today that are not right, where are the converts going to come from without the entity? Think about it.
John
More money tithes, buildings and professional preachers is not what the world needs. Jesus calls us to let him take over more and more of our lives. Christian growth is not organizational but with deep relationship with him and others. Standard churches do many things to hinder real loving relationships.
Jesus never asked for a tithe to be given to the diciples or Christian leaders. It is hard to love a leader who expects and is dependant on ten percent of ones cash. How can one truly get to know such a person?
Tithe pastors are like walking bills which need to be paid. They are like goverment officials. “Your life will go better if you give to my ministry 10%” Most Christians do not pay that bill so a deep relationship with a tithe pastor is difficult. One feels like he is a different animal. We are clergy he is the true tithe taking priest. John do you see my point?
John do you believe that all Christians are to be priest and Christ to the world? The world needs more Christians to start in their homes and become the priest that Jesus has called them to be. 2 Peter 2Ye are a chosen generation a royal priesthood. Churches are not buildings or organization they are people with Jesus Christ in their hearts. To many churches are boxes quarantining the gospel from the world. They preach to the choir.
John do you see the way the current church structure hinders Christian education? Jesus said bring the children to me Matthew 4:19.
The money tithe collecting organizations inoculate too many Christians from becoming evangelist with ministries to their neighbors and Families. Most Christians with kids who pay 10% to their local church do not send their own children to Christian schools. They also do not spend much on Christian entertainment in their own homes. If the average tithes paying Christian cannot disciple his own child every day with a Christian education and entertainment, then why dose that Christian believe that the local tithe denominational church will do a better job of making disciples of others?
If Christians felt that they were all suppose to be Christ, to the world and pastors to their families and unsaved friends then American Christianity would be more healthy. American tithe expecting pastors are a large part of this problem. Instead of preaching to replace themselves they teach priest to be sheep forever while they collect the tithes.
Matthew 28: 19 The standard conventional money tithe taking pastor lead American church, is not a very good at discipleship. The Disciples went to each others houses and fellowshipped by eating together. The modern professional money tithe church structure hinders Christians from being the priest of their homes and priest to their neighbors.
Christian education is a glaring example of the standard churches which charge the 10% money tithe disservice to tithe payers. America needs more Christian schools, and home schools and fewer churches in their current formulation, in my opinion. Christian schools disciple every day and turn each teacher into a minister. They operate more days a week than most churches. Why is the one day a week pastor church the model?
John a more radical model of church is preached in the Bible. Christ in every Christian and every Christian a leader to someone. More leaders are needed and less money tithe takers who call themselves pastors. A real pastor is one who leads in suffering and sacrifice like a missionary. Christian leaders should not expect money but suffering like Jesus. A suffering missionary leader can best help lead other Christians to do the same not a nice person with a comfortable job, leading the American dream, funded through money tithes.
Christ in Us
Mr. freewill giver. This debate is endless. It appears that you are against traditional organized churches. Paul, the first missionary of the church, went everywhere preaching the gospel. He first went to the synagogue in each town, then he went house to house. Paul established local operative churches that were given a commission. This commission was basically to make disciples. These disciples were to carry on the work of Christ on Earth. The Bible clearly commands us to assemble together (Heb.10:25). In I Corinthians 16:2 the Word of God tells us when, how often, and what to bring. He is speaking to the local operative body in Corinth. He tells us to meet on the first day of the week(Sunday). He tells us who (“every one of you”, even Mr. freewill giver). He tells us how much to bring(“lay up in STORE). Assuming you have not studied the original language of the New Testament based upon your position; this word store means tithe, which means a tenth. A tenth of what do you say? I’m glad you asked. “As God has prospered him”. A real Pastor is one who spreads the Gospel. He also cares for the sheep. He in the under- Shepard of the operative church. The church is universal in Body (Ephesians), but it is local in operation (Acts). The Great commission was given to the disciples to be carried out by the church. Super Churches and T.V. evangelist have ruined the name of the church in many ways. The average small town pastor has to work a full time job, like me, and pastor a church. This an enormous responsibility. We work seven days a week, do everything, and are not very appreciated by people, i.e. Mr. freewill giver. I am assuming you are saved. If you are saved; who told you the gospel? I bet it was through some christian organization funded by gifts and offerings. Wouldn’t you want to give that to someone else. That is how you were reached. How many people can you reach on your own? Really? Do not feel that you are smarter than all of the men of God down through the ages. Are you, through pride, able to break away from doctrine and create another philosophy to live? Please read Galations 1:6-9. If you are of those who only believe the Gospels are scripture, do you believe the Old testament? If so, the Bible says in Malachi that if you don’t bring your tithes and offerings in the store house you are robbing God. The temple was God’s work on Earth before the Gospel. Is the local church not the work of God on Earth today? It sure was in Acts. Unless you have another gospel, it still is. You want the authority to do what you want with your money as opposed to obeying Bible authority. You stated that you have an opinion. I don’t have an opinion. I just want to obey God’s Word and HIS doctrine, not mine or yours. Do you even know what a Pastor does? We work every day and are always on call. I’m not living the American dream, I’m doing God’s will(not my will like you). Are you sacrificing for God. I would like to differ. Can you, living in the most wealthy country in the world, really be sacrificing? There are children going to bed tonight without food. You have a computer. How many of them have a computer? Why don’t you sell your computer and give the money to the poor? Did Christ have material possessions like you have? “And Jesus said unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay His head”. Do you have a place to lay your head? Christ did not. Why don’t you sell your house and give all like the early church. I am obviously being ridiculous, but to the extent that you might gain balance and wisdom. You need to look inward when being critical before looking outward (Mat.7). I am a Pastor and I gave my name. You are hiding behind a facade or codename. “Men love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil”. Your problem on tithing and local church ministry are with the Bible and not with me. Your philosophy should be based on the Bible. You shouldn’t base the Bible around your philosophy. The Bible is the ultimate authority, not your misinterpretation. I do appreciate you position on Christian Schools and home schools. We do need more. The only problem is Christ did not die for these, but for the Church (Acts 20:28). The local church at Ephesus is to whom he is speaking and referring . The local operative body, the likes of which you are speaking against. If food is your deepest base of fellowship with the believers than you are like the very people you are criticizing. My fellowship with believers is based on the blood of Christ which covers my sin.
John,
You said yourself that the Church is a body, and operates through the body, so i don’t understand how the closing down of a building is bad? If anything, your disagreement is revealing how over dependent we are on these material things to perform the work of Christ.
I realize that “things” are a tool for us to use, and are not inherently bad. The problem is that “things” such as buildings, technology, and programs become the bread basket of our financial investments as a body of believers. In the new testament, i do not see this model. As a matter of fact, the only type of gifts that were asked to be given or collected were for basic needs. Look it up for yourself and try to find a single verse that shows a giving campaign involved with anything besides personal needs. You won’t find it. . . anywhere.
Giving statistics have stated that 85% of church offerings are spent on the internal operation. Granted, a large majority of that is spent on “staff”, but 85%? . . . That’s a ridiculous number especially when you find such a high majority of giving in the New Testament model went to the needs of others.
If the Church body, which is the representation of Christ, cannot supply a cup of water in his name, or a piece of bread for a meal; why would the world listen to us when we speak of Jesus as the bread of life, and the living water? Supplying for the needs of others speaks more volumes about the name of Jesus than the most grandiose architectural structure in the world.
As a political side note. Look at how people look at government as their savior rather than the representation of Christ. Why? because we’ve neglected the most basic but and spiritual command Jesus gave to us. We preach “living bread” and “everlasting water”, and yet do we provide the humanistic form of this, which by the way is much easier to hand out than the spiritual?
- jared b
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I did not say the church is A body. I said the church is THE body (Colossians 1:18). The body of Christ. The church is not the building. Everybody knows that, but the topic is churches closing. If the building closed down the local church dispersed. Isn’t that obvious? They are no longer in operation. There’s nothing wrong with moving to another building or even going underground. If they cannot afford a building fine. Isn’t funny how it’s ok for you to have a nice house, but it’s somehow wrong for God’s people to meet in a nice building to worship Him. How much of your daily oprating expenses go to your actual needs as opposed to your ministerial practices. Add up you rent, food, luxuries, and other amenities. I bet it’s more than 85 percent. God does not suggest that we meet. he commands it (Heb. 10:25). He does not suggest that we tithe. He commands it (I Cor. 16:2). We are supposed to be good stewards of His tithe. Read what the priest lived on in the Old testament. Read what the Levi’s inheritance was. I realize that many churches today do not spend God’s money properly, but they will answer to the Lord for that. This, however, should not be used as a platform for rebellion as you have used it. There are a lot of bad preachers, but there are still some good ones. The Bible is good. The church is good. The Gospel message is still good. It is not the church’s job to hand out food to the world, although this is a good cause and we still do it. The church has a far greater responsibility. That responsibility is to give them living water. I am surprised that you brought that up and missed the whole point? That could have easily been used in my dissertation. Those statistics are not true in the churches I have been at. How can you put a percentage on something so ambiguous anyway? You can’t. Without the operation nothing gets done. It is all connected. Even if its your absurd 15 percent. How many missionaries did you send to the foreign field this year. To answer your question about the scripture, we are told to bring our tithes and offerings to the local operative body. If some churches spend too much on luxuries, which I believe they do, God will deal with them. If the technology is used for the furtherance of the Gospel, it is good. Don’t blast or condemn the whole local operative body because some don’t do right. They did not survey me. They did not survey hundreds of other Pastors I know who are spending their money right. It is a sad thing that churches are closing. If the buildings are closing the body is not going to meet. That is the real issue. You have all used the life of Christ and the Gospels to talk about Church doctrine? Christ came for one reason, although He did many things. His mission is found in Luke 19:10 and fulfilled in Hebrews 10:12. He then gave the book of Acts and the Epistles in the inspired Word of God to explain church doctrine and operation. Please read Hebrews 10:14-25 and explain how you can do that if you do not meet the way God told us to? If people drink water they will thirst again. If they eat food they will still die. If they receive Christ they will have everlasting life (John 3:16). Read third John. Gaius gave time and again to Paul. Read by what authority and where he gave in third John verse 8. In the church is where he gave. That was the local operative body. That would have been kind of hard if the body would have been dispersed. Read verse eight and see what John tells them that he and other ministers ought to receive. They took nothing of the gentiles, but he received gifts from the church. Your right Christians and churches should not rely on the government, but we should not fight against established authority (Romans 13:1-2). Please use scripture applicable next time, like something actually talking about the church not the life of Christ.
John,
I don’t care where people meet to worship God. Although using my home in comparison is a bad analogy. First, my home is not a pseudo-religious icon. Second, my home provides a place for shelter, food, comfort, and safety 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Third, my home provides for my family’s immediate, survivable needs. The main advantage of a church building is that it is established simply for the convenience of a larger crowd.
By the way, I never said it’s wrong to meet in large buildings, or in a nice place.
This website is NOT a platform for rebellion against truth. Although, this has been used as a rebellion against those who abuse money, and tithing. Nothing personal, but it seems that if i am concerned about stewardship in the Church, then pastors will be the object of criticism of blog posts. Can’t really complain about the president, when i am talking about matters of the Church.
Would you say it’s God’s job to provide for his creation? Then how the heck is he gonna do that without us doing it for him? That’s a bunch of hogwash to say that taking care of needs is not the Church’s job. Maybe God will send raven’s to everyone like he did Elijah.
There is no command in scripture that tells us to bring a tithe to the local body. As a matter of fact you don’t see the word “local” in regards to the Church anywhere in the bible, let alone a command to give 10% towards the whole body.
If the body doesn’t meet because of a building closing then that part of the body was dead anyway.
I may be unique in your eyes, but i believe that ministers should be well taken care of. I have no problem with a minister living a better life than i do. I hope they all are. I just want giving, as well as receiving, to be Holy Spirit instructed. Tithing has no place in a Spirit led Church.
- jared
Brother John thank you for your challenging post.
Where do you think that the tithe doctrines have been abused? I think that the word tithes should be gone for Christians and replaced with offerings or simply giving. What dose every man set in his heart mean to you Jon my brother? This sounds incompatible with tithes. How is Christian giving less strict than the Old testement in your opinion. I think we agree more than your last post.
If all christians are priest then who is otherized to expect the tithes. I am very evangelical and I was saved in a home Bible study. I was the kind of kid who brought his Bible to Jr. high and High school. I formed a Christian Rap band. I go to Bradshaw Christian School fellowship wich never takes an offering. Everyone is expected to give on their own. The Leader of this School of 1000 is the main speaker but everyone is expected to speak at some time in the fellowship. I am not against churches I am mearly against a lack of freedom in giving.
Can tithe money in your opinion be speant to send ones kids to Christian School? Do you believe that it is a sin to pay less than 10%? If you believe in leeway then you are not leagalistic. I do not believe that tithes are mentioned for Christians in the New testement.
I am not against offerings or traditional churches. However I am against the ten percent belongs to the local church doctrine. So long as any pastor dose not preach this doctrine I am fine with them concerning finaces. Thank you for your agreements with me concerning t.v. preachers.
My main beef is with cumpulsary tithes for Christians. Martin Luther the great reformer was against the ten percent for Christians forced tithes rule. In the Old testement the poor did not pay tithes but they recieved the tithes. Jewish land owners were the only ones commanded through the law of moses to tithe and it was not ten percent. It was a range between zero to 35% and it was not voluntary.
Finally Duteronomy 14:is where the Wine and strong drink tithes are found. What is your interpretation of how to carry this tithe out for Christians today?
I believe that every Chritian is to give to many offering plates. Jesus owns 100% and all Christians should shoot for as much of their money in the kingdom of Jesus as possible. But I do not have a narrow view of where offerings should be speant.
What denomination are you John and where is your church? Dose it have a website?
Thankyou for your reply. Answer when you have time. Im out of time. My wife might bust me for not cleaning the house. Later!
Christ in us.
I agree with the principle that we ought to be freewill givers. I just believe that tithing is the way that God has always carried out His work on Earth. I realize that there have been some over the years such as Martin Luther and John R. Rice that did not believe in storehouse tithing. The principle is “as God has prospered him”. It is a standard that is different for every believer based on how “God has prospered him”(AV). It does not say “as he feel led to give”. It is a standard. I believe the Authorized Translation best renders this passage as “let every one of you lay by him in store”. This word store means a tenth. You cannot argue with what the word says. It speaks for itself as does the rest of the Bible. In the Old Testament the poor did pay tithes, and the Priests, who lived off of tithes, tithed on the tithes! We have developed a modernistic philosophy in our churches in these last days. The Bible calls it an apostasy or a turning away from truth. There is no doubt we have turned away from the traditional practices and doctrines of the operative church in the past 400 years. Read church history. When it comes to the comment about the house not being used for the church to operate in; what do you think the early church did? Read Acts 20:20. I do agree it is not best to meet for services in a house because that is private place for a family. The comment about a part of the body being dead is also quite offensive. It is offensive because no part of the body can die because Christ lives and it is His body! You can say that tithing has no place in the Spirit led church, but please use scripture to back it up not ignorant comments like “what the heck”. A spirit led church obeys the Bible not what they have preconceived as truth. We do give to the poor as does every believer should. It is a principle in the Word of God. I was just saying that it is not the main object of the church. I am sorry if that was misunderstood. I didn’t mean to sound cruel. Paul did say it’s vain to say you are going to pray for the need and not provide it if possible. Peter, however said “that which I have I give unto you”. He had no silver or gold. I was just saying that the main emphasis ought to be on the spiritual. Wouldn’t you agree? Read Acts 3:1-11. Paul said if a man doesn’t work, neither should he eat. What is your take on that?
Mr. Freewill giver, I did actually appreciate that last post. You seem more positive than my original take. I appreciate the fact that you have accepted Christ. I would not speak against the great reformer Martin Luther. He did not have everything figured out, for example infant baptism and and his view on the book of James. He was, however a great man of God and was highly used. I do not think now or ever I will attain to his bravery. I read on him often. I believe that we just disagree, you and I that is, on the principle of new testament tithing. We cannot all agree on everything all the time. That is part of our imperfect nature. The principle of freewill giving is correct in the sense that we ought to be a willing, cheerful giver. Everyone was commanded to pay tithes in the Old Testament. Malachi scolds them for not doing so. If a preacher stands up on Sunday morning to asks for tithes, as many do all the time, and he uses that money for his own lavish lifestyle, as many do, then I agree, he is wrong. I would just be careful about going too far the other way. I am a Pastor at a Baptist Church and our website in in progress. I’ll let you know when it is up and running. I won’t leave any more comments on this topic. I happened on this site by accident when preparing a sermon and looking for church statistics. I have actually never done this before. Isn’t funny how we get so consumed with things. You can have the last word.
John thank you May you have much grace when the issue of tithes comes up again in your conversation with your church members.
The definition of store however my friend I don’t think contains the Idea of tenth. I got this from blueletterbible.com.
At any rate, Even if I agreed with your position about store the question remains who shold folks tithe to. If all Christians are priest then who must pay tithes? In the Old testement the priest were exempt.
????????????
Transliteration
apoth?sauriz?
Pronunciation
ä-po-th?-sau-r?’-z? (Key)
Part of Speech
verb
Root Word (Etymology)
from G575 and G2343
TDNT Reference
n/a
Vines
View Entry
Outline of Biblical Usage 1) to put away, lay by in store, to treasure away
2) to store up abundance for future use
Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 1 AV — lay in store 1 Thayer’s Lexicon (Help)
Thank you John for your imput. If you preach the phrase Free will giving then your system of tithing might be less legalistic than most.
I am a United Methodist Minister who is in conversations with a church about closing. They have not run out of money but have run out of energy-ten people managing almost an acre of property and a building. They are thinking about donating money to other organizations and hope that the building will be sold to someone who will allow the organizations who rent the space to stay. They are divided about what to do. I respect their journey and am looking for constructive ways to lead and to listen to them. It seems to me that a church can leave a legacy in other ways besides through it’s building. I also believe that there are possibilities for new life for them in other churches and for the building to have another congregation in it. Of course, conversations about mergers and partnerships are all apart of it.
Blessings to all of you as we
work this thing out prayerfully.