2 Corinthians 3:17
the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Most of us on this site would be of the persuasion that most of the time the local church organizations are the least efficient ministries. Direct giving to the poor and training ones family at home is the most efficient most of the time. Any one dissagree with that? Please explain your dissagreements.

There’s a serious problem with that idea – it’s just an idea, but it delicately gravitates away from God’s Word. First, you would need to clarify what you mean by “organizations”. In Scripture, we know that local churches were not established as organizations; yet, God’s Word presents various local churches to us.

Second, and more importantly, what does Scripture say about what you’re proposing? Does direct giving to the poor (Mark 14:7) replace our stewardship in committed giving in local churches (1 Cor. 16:1-4)? You may be disinclined to giving in local churches – that’s okay; but does an appeal to humanistic ideas take precedence over God’s Word?

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7. CONFUSING PRIORITIES

What would you preach to others when they might ask “Should I give ten percent money tithe to my local church like my pastor says or should I start my own ministry by sending my kids to Christian School”‘? Gwain I can guess that your answer would be “set in your heart what you should give” Everyone, what do you think of my lines of thougt here?

You seem to be confusing issues here, freewillgiver. Sending one’s kids to any school (Christian or otherwise) is not the same thing as “starting your own ministry”. If you’re not comfortable identifying with a local church (Heb. 10:25), that has nothing to do with the choice of whether or not to send your kids to any school.

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As regards the Assemblies of God (AofG), it seems you guys have largely misconstrued their position. So, from yours, freewillgiver, here are a few things to note:

This is some of the Assemblies of God official statment on tithes. Gwaine and everyone. I made a generic statment conserning most churches that they would exactly agree to or not oppose here was that statment.

‘Generic statement’? It is unfortunate that you’re using the position of one church to plaster guilt across the board. That is the sort of wild reaction that’s a put-off in these discussions, and it’s unfortunate that the links of several churches I posted yesterday were not reflected (I could share them with you by email, or ask Jared for them). Not everything about their position on tithing appeals to everyone, and I might show you a few other things you never considered as well before jumping to conclusions.

“All christians must give 10% of their money to their local church or be in sin”

Perhaps I missed it; but could you show me where the official statement says you’d “be in sin” for not giving 10%? The article states that if one was not identifying with a local body of believers, “he or she disregards God’s instruction that we not forsake assembling together with believers (Hebrews 10:25)”. They did not state that if one does not give “10%”, they must “be in sin”, and it’s not a godly attitude to put words into their mouth.

Wow folks can you believe that? How many false doctrines are contained in the above statment? Local church? Leadership= to the Athority of Moses? Almost automatic Blessings for money tithers?

That also was not inferred in the article of their Statement on tithing. You may have a serious problem with the “local church”, but please share with us on how the “local church” in Scripture is ‘false doctrine’. As for “leadership” and “Moses”, you’re driving your own canard into the article, and anyone who can read with context will see your reaction is uncalled for.

However, I’m more concerned with your assertion: “Almost automatic Blessings for money tithers” – that was also NOT given in the article either. First, they noted that – “the ATTITUDE with which both tithes and offerings are given is very important”; and then they made clear that:
1. “we faithfully give out of love RATHER THAN OBLIGATION”
2. “we do not give to God in order to get more back”
Do these sound like they were saying the same thing as your “almost automatic Blessings for money tithers”?! Why the deliberate prevarication?

Wow! Christians should give even if they do not support decisions by leadership. Free will offerings only begin after the 10%. That my friends is forced Christian money tithing and churches are the new temples of God. Wow there are so many Christian man made doctrines in that statment. That is a pro money tithing document!

“Free will offerings ONLY BEGIN after the 10%” – honestly, is that what they said? Are we so driven by our own tendentiousness to deliberately misread simple statements? I’m just wondering.

Although I’m not profoundly familiar with the AofG Bylaws, yet I don’t think you are fairly representing their views. They nowhere stated that free will offerings “only begin” after the 10%. At best, you may have been referring to the statement in the article that reads: “we may designate some of our offerings (beyond the tithes) to ministries outside the local church”; or to “voluntary offerings given by God’s people over and above the required tithe”. These pointers (‘beyond’ and ‘over and above’) do not mean that freewill offerings ONLY BEGIN after the 10%. In fact, you’d get a full picture in reading the official delineation of the AofG position found in the General Council Bylaws. Please ask, and I’d be glad to oblige the links by email, if posting them may not be approved.

All in Christ do not have equal ministries accorcding to that formula.

Please carefully read the following:
- 1 Corinthians 12:18, 27-30;
- Ephesians 4:11-12;
- Hebrews 13:7
- 1 Peter 5:1-2, 5
How do you reconcile your own formula of “equal ministries” with what we find in God’s Word in those verses? You really should take the time to study more on leadership in the Church before you draw hasty and deeply flawed conclusions.

In all, thank you for the opportunity to yet identify some of the problems in typical anti-tithing arguments. I’ve been there and out, so there’s nothing strange about them. The tendency for people to manufacture wild canard for their arguments leaves a question on my mind: WHY do some believers resort to deliberate falsehood just to push their own default position?

May the grace of the Lord Jesus help us to genuine godliness.

Your replies are appreciated. It’s always been my endeavour to be open to dialogue; but where discussants prove they’re more interested in tomfoolery than in reasoning, I feel very sorry for them.

Yet, you’re one of those with whom I’ve enjoyed discussing. I think there are several concerns we share both ways, which have been addressed several times both in few words and at length, if we’d been more willing to listen than in labelling other people. A few other points we may need to reconsider for balance. Please don’t get me wrong, but let’s highlight some from yours:

1. WORDS AND MEANINGS -

The meaning that you put into the word tithes is better than the meaning that is taught by most evangellical pastors and congregations…
Since your meaning thrown into tithes is superior to most churches you would get trouble if you preached your doctrines on tithes would you agree?

I’m not sure that the meaning of tithes as we discussed is going to be problematic to most churches – especially because “most” of the churches I tried to outline earlier (post not reflected) quite understand this meaning and that is why they are not pedantic or formalistic about a fixed figure of “ONLY 10%”. The examples I tried citing in the yet-to-be-reflected post include:
- United Church of Christ
- some Catholic churches
- the MCC (Metropolitan Community Churches)
- some Lutheran churches (eg., Lutheran Church of the Resurrection; and the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod)
- some Presbyterian Churches
- … and a host of other well-known churches.
This is not an exhaustive list; but the basic thought is that they’re not pedantic on the meaning of tithes as to plaster it with a legalistic OT Law application.

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2. CONFRONT ABUSES DIRECTLY -

I believe that the tithe exesses are often done by well meaning Christian leaders who usually call themselves pastors.

The problem is not the tithes or whatever people call themselves; rather, it is the manipulation employed to defraud and mislead people – and this happens on both sides of the debate. You’re aware that some priests and leaders in the OT actually abused their calling and privileges (eg., 1 Sam. 2:15-17 & Ezek. 34:1-4, 18); but what was God’s response to such things? He raised up godly men who confronted these abuses directly, rather than castigating the tithes and offerings!

On the pro-tithing side, some people have abused the tithes and offerings of God’s people. For instance, apart from the financial scandals, they use it as a prerequisite for membership in their churches, or as visa to the kingdom of God (hence salvation), or as the basis for employment discrimination. These are not the reasons why God established tithes in any instance – and we should by all means be set against and directly confront these abuses.

On the other hand, the mistake “we” often make on the anti-tithing side is to mispunch by attacking tithes with frivolous and fallacious arguments and misinterpretations of simple Bible texts. Just imagine the argument that Abraham’s tithes were “pagan”, and many people quoting such fallacies are not even aware that some references which anti-tithers use in their arguments actually teach the opposite! In some other instances, those who are now too embarrassed to use the “pagan-Abraham-Melchizedek” sophistry, are yet misrepresenting what other churches are saying about tithes! I mean, why do we have to repeatedly resort to bare-faced falsehood just to “prove” that tithes are “unBiblical”?

Instead of resorting to dubious and wild misrepresentations of issues, we could simply identify the real problems (the abuses) and deal with them squarely! Resorting to falsehood in arguing for or against tithes is ungodly; and there’s no justification for disguising such falsehood under the “love” of Jesus.

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3. MISINFORMATION AND PREJUDICES -

Why not drop the word tithes when conserning Christian giving?
…
Offerings is a superior term for What Christians give. What do you think would you preach offerings or tithes?
…
Why not always replace the word tithes with offering or giving?

The terminology or argot are not half as important as the proof of our commitment to actually give (see 2 Corinthians 8:24). When people worry so much about what ‘term’ to use in their giving, then unnecessary debates begin to emerge. This is why people who talk about “NEW covenant principles” are being dubious, because they mislead the gullible into thinking that those principles are “NEW” and were not in the “OLD covenant”.

What exactly makes “offering” to be superior to ‘tithes’ or any other term? Is it that you’re personally seeking to promote one over the other, so that you can be partial in this matter? “Showing partiality is never good” – Proverbs 28:21 (NLT).

If you’re going to promote the term ‘offering’ over ‘tithe’, you’d have to present verses specifically stating one term as ‘superior’ to the other. While we may be thrashing about on either terms (offering and tithes), someone else might come along and join the fray with his own appellations: vows, gifts, contributions, donations, pledges, collections, etc. And then where would the debate then lead on from there?

As before, it’s not so much what term anyone wants to use that is paramount in our giving. If we replace the word ‘tithe’ with ‘offering’, does that automatically solve our problems? Does that take away the fact that people would still give a certain percentage of their income for God’s work, whatever percentage that may be? Or does using the term ‘offering’ eliminate the same scandals that have blistered the saints? You can see that your recommendation does not even come up to scratch with dealing with practical issues.

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4. APPEALING TO UNRELATED ARGUMENTS -

The diminishing of the prieshood of all believers is part of the problems with the money tithe doctrines. Also the local church mentality, What do you think about that? I think that pastoring is somthing that all Christians do in word and deed more than it is a position.

While we’re all called to care for one another in the Body of Christ, God has gifted mature men for leadership who pastor local churches. We should never confuse the first (’that the members should have the same care one for another’ – 1 Cor. 12:25) for the second (‘taking the oversight thereof’ – 1 Peter 5:1-3; see also Jer. 3:15 and Acts 20:28). Christ gave SOME, not everyone, to be pastors and teachers in the Church (Eph. 4:11). Distinguishing the one from the other would help us towards maintaining a balance and not blaming unrelated problems on tithes.

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5. A RESPONSIBILITY: FOSTER UNDERSTANDING -

Tithes is not an evil word but the standard monetithe doctrine is very problematic. To the average American Christian listener tithes will usually always additinally mean code for The standard tithe doctrine.
… Tithes is one of those pregnant terms loaded with bad meanings and docrtine in the U.S. Is there a term you Gwain would use that is equivelent or is the word tithes irreplacable?

Don’t you think that people who promote a biased definition of any subject are actually contributing to the injuries suffered by many? Both anti-tithers and pro-tithers often appeal to some narrow meaning of the tithes so that it becomes convenient to attack strawmen – this is why some people reject some meanings of the term, and others strongly appeal to other definitions. If we take only some beveled meaning or definition of the term and hold only to that, what more are we doing than others holding their own preferred definition?

Our responsibility is to help others appreciate a proper understanding of giving and stewardship, rather than promoting the default ideas derived from appeal to wild statements. It is not the “replacement” of one word with another fanciful term that solves our problem. From the onset, I’ve maintained that it’s of no consequence to me whatever names anyone uses – what’s far more essential is the proof of our commitment to give (2 Cor. 8:24).

First, I don’t know what happened but my reply to freewillgiver detailing the links of the other churches on tithes did not appear. I could have posted them to him if I had his email addy. But no worries.

However, let me try and correct your misconception on the article of the AofG:

If they simply thought tithing was a good principle, then they wouldn’t go into detail about how Jesus commended and Abraham gave it before the law.

There’s nothing wrong in pointing out Jesus’ commendation and Abraham’s tithing before the Law. In contrast, some anti-tithers have misrepresented both the person of Melchizedek and Abraham’s tithing; and it’s not surprising that this canard was conveniently devised to mislead folks into believing Abraham’s tithing was paganism. If you consult some of the refrences used in arguing paganism for Abraham, you’d be surprised that they teach the direct opposite!

The AoG believes the tithe is required.

Christians can miss out on God’s abundant blessing by looking on the tithe as the entire requirement for giving

They say it right there. If they don’t think tithing is entire requirement for giving then guess what, they still believe that tithing is “part” of the requirement.

Lol, you just saw “entire requirement” and immediately ran with it! Did you try to look at the context of what they stated? Re-read that whole paragraph – the first and last statements are urging Christians NOT to look at the tithe as an “entire requirement” or “obligation”. That is why they stated that: “The giving of either tithes or offerings WITH A GRUDGING SPIRIT LOSES MUCH OF THE BLESSING that can come as we faithfully GIVE OUT OF LOVE RATHER THAN OBLIGATION.”

The simple thing there was that they urged the giving to be out of love and NOT by obligation.

It may help you to carefully read the article through again.

Regards.

http://www.christian-witness.org/archives/cetf2006/tithing37.html

The Assemblies of God is also concerned about people who withhold tithes when they do not like decisions and directions espoused by spiritual leaders. Christians should fellowship with a local body of believers and bring their whole tithes into that storehouse (Malachi 3:10).

Though some of the Israelites may not have liked decisions made by Moses and his successors, they were given no alternatives. While we may designate some of our offerings (beyond the tithes) to ministries outside the local church, the tithes rightfully belong in the church with which the Christian identifies.

And if one is not identifying with a local body of believers, he or she disregards God’s instruction that we not forsake assembling together with believers (Hebrews 10:25).

Some Christians do not tithe, claiming they cannot afford to give up 10 percent of their income. Simple arithmetic may suggest that 90 percent will not go as far as 100 percent in satisfying essential family needs.

But God has built a multiplication factor into our giving of tithes and offerings.

Malachi recorded God’s words, “Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse… Test me in this… and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it” (Malachi 3:10).

Though we do not give to God in order to get more back, as some suggest we should, God’s promises are still true–if our giving is according to His instruction.

________________________________
Wow folks can you believe that? How many false doctrines are contained in the above statment?
Local church? Leadership= to the Athority of Moses? Almost automatic Blessings for money tithers?

This is some of the Assemblies of God official statment on tithes. Gwaine and everyone. I made a generic statment conserning most churches that they would exactly agree to or not oppose here was that statment.
_______________________________
“All christians must give 10% of their money to their local church or be in sin”
_______________________________
Wow! Christians should give even if they do not support decisions by leadership. Free will offerings only begin after the 10%. That my friends is forced Christian money tithing and churches are the new temples of God. Wow there are so many Christian man made doctrines in that statment. That is a pro money tithing document!

All Christians are not priest in their formula if you Believe in what they posted. There are some Christians who recieve the tithes and some who give the tithes-leadership. All in Christ do not have equal ministries accorcding to that formula. There is alot more but that is all for now.

Thanfully all Christians are priest. “Ye are a chosen generation a royal priesthood”
And priest had control to how they ran their own ministries. We can “set in our hearts what we should give”. Under the above statment Offerings are only after the mandated 10% moneytithe.

I think Assemlies of God doctrine fits the definition of a Christian group which would not oppose my statment or they would fit it exactly. How do you think they did?

Was that not an amazing piece of reading? Please tell me what yall think

Christ in Us

Of course they can’t force their members to tithe without violating individual rights to choice. These denominations don’t encourage tithing, as if it’s a good practice. If they simply thought tithing was a good principle, then they wouldn’t go into detail about how Jesus commended and Abraham gave it before the law.

The AoG believes the tithe is required.

Christians can miss out on God’s abundant blessing by looking on the tithe as the entire requirement for giving

They say it right there. If they don’t think tithing is entire requirement for giving then guess what, they still believe that tithing is “part” of the requirement.

Everyone check out the link that Gwane gave us. Jared it is incredible!

The Assemblies of God has always been a proponent of tithing (or giving one-tenth of one’s personal income to support the work of God). Later in their Christian tithe document they explain it was Christians duty to give tithes. This is the common stuff I am against. They load the word tithes with 10% of ones income. Notice that includs everyone no exeptions.

They just defined it.The average U.S. Bibiically illiterate Christian would walk away with the understanding “tithe or be in sin” Do you agree?

If they replaced the word tithes with offering it would covey much more freedom. Would you support this doctrine of theres I will post on this again it is a whopper. Gwaine I don’t think so. This is the common scripture twisting which I speak of

Notice how the commanded tithes of moses to support the Levites “always crops or food” in the bible became income. To the average listener income= money. They fit my simplistic exactly money tithe formula or they are not against my formula. Notice how they never mention that the poor did not pay tithes and that tithes were only for Landowners and Cattle owners. Heck they called tithes 10%. They are incredible.

“10% of all Christian money belongs to the local church”
The Assemblies of God was my church for most of my life now I fellowship truly undenominational.

Christ in us!

There are so many reasons I debate tithes. One reason I present for debating tithes to Jared, Gwaine, Marty and everyone is that “where ones treasure is your heart is also”. Contained in the standard “10% money tithe to the local church” misundestandings are man made doctrines on top of man made doctrines which all lead away from Jesus being central. The “local church” mentality is more suported by believing that Christians money tithe, rather than give offerings to Jesus. The Church, the Body of Christ becomes a place like the Jesish temples. Then Chistianity becomes mostly tied to a day and a place.

Offerings is a superior term for What Christians give. What do you think would you preach offerings or tithes? Temples are connected with the earth. I give to Jesus, Besides our body is the temple and the body of Christ is the large temple. I think the local church term distorts the idea that givinig should go to people that Jesus puts on our hearts. “Let every man set in his heart what he should give”

Why not always replace the word tithes with offering or giving? Where is the power in the word tithes if it is so easily manipulated, loaded and misunderstood in the language of today. Tithes is not an evil word but the standard monetithe doctrine is very problematic. To the average American Christian listener tithes will usually always additinally mean code for The standard tithe doctrine. It takes de construction of the word to set the average U.S Christian straight. I am African American the term Coulored or Negro takes de- construction to not be hostle in my ears even if it comes from a loving person.

Gwaine “There is no anathema in my heart or in any others on this site that I know of for those who tithe”. I don’ Know exactly who thinks those who tithe are anathema. Whatever anathema means. Rememeber my vocabulary is often as low as my spelling skills.

For those who recieve money tithes and preach the standard doctrines which you your self would never teach, yes for that most of us would agree on this site that teaching such, and taking money is a sin most of the time. Some Christian leaders are truly in mistaken error. Taking others monye with the tithe doctrines diminishes others mission in my opinion. If folks truly are giving voluntarily then there is almost no problem. But the term tithe implys force to the average U.S. listener. We truly believe church is the people and that “we are the body of Christ” If we are priest and the body of Christ then we all have local ministries wich are every day and in the home.

Where are all the Christian videos for our children? Why do most American Christians have more secular entertainment than Christian entertainmet. Partially because America christians believe that some of the Money belongs to Jesus and the 90% belongs to themselves. They also believe that they go to the “House of God” when they attend their local church.They are mislead away from truly believing that they all have thier own ministries and all their money is Church money. “Ye are a chosen generation a royal priesthood” Now this misleading is mostly unintentional but certain terms are pregnant in our Biblically illiterate culture. Tithes is one of those pregnant terms loaded with bad meanings and docrtine in the U.S. Is there a term you Gwain would use that is equivelent or is the word tithes irreplacable?

We are anti tithe but we are also more for starting ones own ministry and effficient ministries to spread the love of Jesus. Sometimes the most efficient is to the local church weather they preach money tithing or not. Most of us on this site would be of the persuasion that most of the time the local church organizations are the least efficient ministries. Direct giving to the poor and training ones family at home is the most efficient most of the time. Any one dissagree with that? Please explain your dissagreements.

What would you preach to others when they might ask “Should I give ten percent money tithe to my local church like my pastor says or should I start my own ministry by sending my kids to Christian School”‘? Gwain I can guess that your answer would be “set in your heart what you should give” Everyone, what do you think of my lines of thougt here?

Anyways folks if we love and believe in Jesus then we are the Body of Christ, and the royal priesthood. We are all priest, we are the church and it starts in our homes. There is no day of Church we must let Jesus be in everyhing we do. I have asked alot of questions I hope I have caused somone to think. Please respond when yall can.

Christ in Us