Many have asked me, “why tithing”? Of all the things to study and debate, why have i chosen tithing? Right off the bat i don’t really know why the topic of tithing fires me up so much, so i found 5 good reasons to get fired up about the tithing debate.
The Love of Money is the Root of all Kinds of Evil
I almost said that money is the root of evil. I think i write that because my mind is always on autopilot. Money is not the root of all kinds of evil. The LOVE of money is. Sure, tithing is a good discipline to rid greed from those who are giving, but what about those who are receiving? There are many out there who are extorting God’s word for the gain of money. Many of you think about televangelists, but that’s just a few on TV. There are many more who desire more and more money to build more and more of their kingdom. Sure, many of them think that God gave them this vision to do this or that. Tithing allows them to build their own dreams and mandate others to pay for it. It’s not necessarily that they love money; they love what money can build.
Tithing in the New Testament Church is Against Scripture
Plain and simple and probably the most important factor that inspires my quest against tithing. I’m not going to spout out any scripture to prove tithing wrong. I’ve done plenty of that already in the past. I believe with all of my heart, that tithing is unbiblical. I do not have an ounce of doubt in my heart or mind about it. I wish i could take what i’ve learned and play it in a movie, or write it in a book. Words and pictures will not do justice to what the Spirit of God has enlightened in my heart.
Tithing Extorts the Poor and Excuses the Rich
The church will try everything to get out of helping this poor man. They will show how he can spend less here and there, and yet still ask him to pay his tithes. They think no one has an excuse not to tithe. They don’t even realize that in scripture it was the poor who received tithes. What about the rich, why pick on them? They paid their tithes, didn’t they? Is a tithe really what God expects of them or is that what WE are expecting from them? Tithing is unjust and unfair.
Jesus Talked about Money More than any other Subject
Obviously nothing has more of a hold on people than money does. If Jesus talked about it so much than it must be crucial. I’m not a financial guru. I flunked accounting in highschool. But i do know that the flow of money going in and out of the church should be a much discussed topic. Disagree? Don’t mark my words, look at Jesus’. He talked about it more than sin, heaven, and hell.
Giving statistics stated that religious organizations brought in 103 billion dollars last year. We have done very little with the 103 billion dollars and we complain that we could do more if only more tithed. It is calculated that we spend 85% of what we take in on ourselves. As a matter of fact only 3% goes towards ministering to the needs of the unsaved. No wonder the world thinks the Church is greedy. It’s not because we are constantly asking for money. it’s because we keep it all to ourselves.
This is besides the point. How the Church receives it’s funds is important. If tithing is in place then people are not free to give to other places that God is leading them to give. Instead people are handcuffed to an organization that spends more and more on themselves.
Tithing Challenges me to Study God’s Word
I will admit, i’m not the encourager or exalter in the group. I like to dissect things with my mind and find solutions to fix the problems. If i see a problem i will speak up. I won’t if everything is going right, i just expect it to. I’m very opinionated, and debates really fuel my fire. I love them. Am i contentious. Sometimes, yes. I try to work on that. I don’t like to pick fights for no reason. But i love a good challenge. There is nothing biblically wrong with wanting to debate God’s word. Your motives must be pure, and you have to be extra careful about how your attitude shows Christ.
Everyone has their methods to help them get fired about God. For some, it’s to look for those who need emotional help. Others, it’s to look for a those who need some teaching. It’s all different for all of us. We are all wired different ways. I’d like to say that the greatest Christian is the one who is most balanced, but more than likely that Christian doesn’t fit in many places. We are different members with different things that drive our motivation. If we are the hands, then doing things with our hands motivates us. If we are the head, then using our thinking or leadership skills motivates us. We are all driven by different things.
So many People are Believing the Wrong Thing
This just hurts to see the number of people who are believing the wrong thing. I’m on a quest to help as many as i can to see the truth in God’s Word. If there was no one to convince, then i probably wouldn’t get into tithing. But it’s a challenge for me, and there are many who need help, and do not know the truth. At one time i didn’t know the truth. You can read about it in my tithing testimony. It is great to hear testimonies from those who have been freed by the teachings of God’s word about tithing. I do not want to diminish the fact of giving sacrificially, but at the same time, people are locked up in chains and need to be freed from the tithing mandate first in order to truly understand sacrificial giving.
Possibly Related Posts
- Is It Important to Debate Tithing?
- Top 10 Reasons Why Tithing is Not Required
- Defensive tithing comments that sound good, but are Deceptive.
- 5 Reasons Why we Need a Recession
Tags: apologetics, church, debate, giving, jesus, stewardship, tithing
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Jared thankyou soo much. Keep up the work it is winning diciples to Jesus not to Jared. Your post left out that through the study of tithing we can find out what Jesus is telling us to do each day. Tithes is a major block in the Churchianity edifice which can get folks to heaven but once they are there they will have to be introduced to Jesus. My flesh loves Churcianity it externalizes the walk with Jesus. At first I only wanted Churchianity without tithes now I am finding that I want more of Jesus.
I started reading and pondering your blog and posting to challeng tithes. Now after attempting to change the hearts of others on this subject somthing strange is happening to me. The Bible reading and reading other books while sharing with others has informed me that I have to change.
I read Pagan Christianity 90% through but at first I was not interested in the Jesus stuff or seeing a more authentic walk in myself. Now I see how the Temple, Proof texing, tithes order of the Bible Pastors and all that have drammaticly affected my relationships with others and in my family. I always wanted to be a layity or a clergy going to heaven now I want more of Jesus and his purpose. That is not the kind of thing that i am used to saying it goes against my nature. Wow Jared thanyou so much. In heaven or sooner you will meet a Black man who has internalized peices of your heart in your post. We are Brothers.
PS I will not go and start my own housechurch like Joe Housechurch in the book. I will actually wait for the Spirit of Jesus to lead me everyday.
Hi Jared,
I whole-heartedly agree with freewillgiver. I too have noticed that my perception and my heart towards the things of God has changed. I am more appreciative of the grace that got me saved than trying to look good before men by ticking the tithing register every month. I was a bit hesitant to take a stand in my church with regards this issue until God made me realise that I was not honouring him in my actions but more interested in pleasing men. Now I have come under heavy criticism and I am almost tempted to ask if church has become a cult where you are not entitled to have your own opinion but have to believe everything preached without asking questions.
I have actually come to discover that the attitude of today’s church towards this tithing doctrine shows how little they know about God, His grace and His mercies. If people’s commitment to God is judged by how much money they give in church, then the church has completely lost the plot and has descended into the depths of carnality. What a shame! No wonder there is no power in today’s church because sound doctrine is completely non existent just people with itching ears who want to be told what they want to hear, no longer wanting to endure sound doctrine.
I am really encouraged that God is also revealing His mind to others as well and may the good Lord continue to prosper His work in our hands in Jesus name, amen.
Tony thanks for the agreement.
This message of anti tithing can make us like the prophets and like Jesus. Along the way we will discover Jesus burning our flesh while we attempt to love the folks who will ridicule our position. I am not a natural listener, it is so difficult for me. I also do not take insults well. But it seems Jesus wants me to be insulted to tear down the parts of me that are not like him.
Tony it seems you have found that the love of Christ in us brings suffering and makes one take hard stands. Please set folks free from tithing with gentleness and respect. It is as difficult for you as it is for me. I once had respect for the organizations. Now my icons are revealed for what they are. Worse yet I am now partially responcible to tell them the truth. Yike’s!!! I can’t take the blue pill anymore. Now I have got to escape the matrix and help others out. But I still have so many Matrix ways in me. Jesus will purge them.
The truth is burdensome because now I know I am responcible. Now it ain’t the churches job, or the pastor’s job, to spread the free gospel it is my job with Christ in me. Sometimes I wish I did not know the truth about tithes. Yes Praise Jesus, I am free, but now I must work to build a network around me of folks who really fellowship. I can’t just be a member of the laity and slip unnoticed in a large congregation, I now have got to walk with Jesus every moment.
In their insults Jesus is challenging us to love deeply and to deeply listen. Loving and listening can’t be surface but connecting will win far more folks to our position. Changing hearts and minds with love is difficult and self denying. People are worth it even the rude ones. That embrace of the suffering as from the hand of Jesus is the walking with Jesus, loving enemies and changing our mind when we are wrong. Job credited God for his suffering. The way of Love has lonely valleys.
I am finding spreading this small truth about tithing is giving me more love for the church. We got to reach them so they can be all they can be in Jesus. We don’t just go to Church, We are the Church, with Christ in us.
Hey bro,
The Lord will give us grace in Jesus name. It is well.
May the good Lord continue to reveal himself to us more and more in Jesus name, Amen
Hi Jared I fully agree and I thank you for taking the up the challenge. my problem is I find it difficult sitting in church and being critisize for not titing. i dont know when I was in church as you feel like a criminal as it is said that you rob God. I studied the scripture but find it hard to find simular believers who share my view mostly unbelievers.
If you can recommend a church in South Africa Cape town I will really appreciate it.
Thanks
jeremy
I’m sorry, I don’t know the name of the person who wrote this article but this is for you.
Thank you so much! I knew in my heart of hearts when I first got saved that the sermon about tithing given by my pastor raised a warning flag within me. I just couldn’t bring my self to fully accept the tithing message. Not because I was greedy, it just didn’t make any sense to me.
I thought, “Does God really need my money or does He want me?” It just didn’t set well within my soul for many years. I even tried to tithe a few times and tried to get in the habit. However, I managed to be late on paying bills and had to ask the church for help with finances. It was a big mess.
I have searching the internet for a “non-tithing” church near me and I have had “no luck” (for the lack of a better term) in finding one.
If anyone has any advice or help, please send me a message @ mjswizzle@yahoo.com or at my website blog.
Hi Marty,
Like you, I’m often interested in the subject of tithing; and perhaps several other readers might benefit from my comments – which is why I’d like to share them online instead of offline by email.
There’s something we all need to grasp: using the wrong excuses to justify any arguments (for or against tithes) is simply unhealthy. Please allow me to point out just two common mistakes people often make:
1. God indeed doesn’t need anyone’s money – and if that has any substance at all, then anyone (including me) who gives money at other times and still uses that excuse as an argument against tithes is simply being a hypocrite. We could all fold our hands and give NOTHING under this same excuse: “Does God need my money?” At the end of the day, let such people not come back hooting that “God loves a cheerful giver”, since He really doesn’t “need” anyone’s money.
2. Giving tithes or any other percentage (below or above 10%) at anytime does not justify “unpaid bills”. If anyone is averse to giving any tithes at all, let them refrain from doing so – but let them not seek to hang their aversion on such excuses as being late at paying their bills. That exculpation is sadly a flimsy one.
The thing we often fail to understand is this: God does not “DEMAND” (or coerce, force, dragoon) anything from His children in this matter. At best, He invites us to participate in this ministry without grudges or excuses (see 2 Cor. 9:7, “not grudgingly, or of necessity”, KJV). If a giver (whether of 5%, 10% 15%, … or even 55% and more) has any reason to grumble about anything in giving, they are better off giving NOTHING while rejoicing to sing the chorus that “God loves a cheerful giver”. Believers should stop hanging their excuses about “unpaid bills” on tithes or anything else.
We are often told that tithing is “wrong”. Why? Often, the tenuous argument for the aversion is that it’s difficult, burdensome, manipulative, UNJUST, UNFAIR, and outright evil; thus they conclude it’s a “false doctrine”. No worries – let such brethren tell God directly to His face that same thing.
But just think about it for a moment: most people who disavow tithing will often tell you they give MORE THAN 10%. While it’s not my style to argue with them about what they give, it seems rather funny that these folks have a problem with what is “less” than what they boast of giving. Simply try this experiement: if “1 out of 10″ (ie., 10%) is too difficult, is it “3 or 5 out of 10″ (30% or 50%) that is far easier to give? I’m not stuck on 10% (“1 out of 10″); but I often wonder that if anti-tithers are struggling with just this “1″, how can they convince themselves and others about the “liberality” in a boast of giving MORE THAN “1″ (eg., “3″ or “5″ out of 10) and still not struggle with “unpaid bills”? This has nothing to do with whether you are rich or poor – people will ferret anything to argue that this or that is “wrong”, and my opinion is that they should tell that to God directly to His face!
What you give is not responsible for your “unpaid bills” – that is not a healthy excuse to offer against tithing. If you’re comfortable with any giving (especially MORE and ABOVE ‘1 out of 10′); or if you’re rather not comfortable giving anything at all (ie, ‘0 out of 10′) – do as you may, afterall you asked the question: “Does God really need my money or does He want me?”? Since He doesn’t “need” anybody’s money, let’s just all fold our hands and give NOTHING while singing that “God loves a cheerful giver”… if one excuse is ’superb’, another thousand excuses will be equally ’superb’. But try not making yourself the victim of another person’s untenable excuses.
“Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; … And God is able to make all grace abound toward you” [2 Cor. 9:7-8]
Regards.
Gwaine
I am trying to digest your post. I will read it again but are you for Christian money tithing or against it? Well I will think about a responce to your post but it was thought prevoking. I will examine my motives. I like your train of thought so I had to respond quickly.
Well, this may come as a surprise, but I’m neither “for” nor “against” tithing. I think Christians should be allowed the freedom in the principle found in 2 Cor. 9:7, quoted earlier.
There are numerous arguments on either side that many people cherish as strongly supporting their persuasions, whether anti-tithing or pro-tithing – and I appreciate them. However, it so happens many, many times that most anti-tithing arguments I read are simply strained and untenable. What would be more helpful, perhaps, is that discussants try and be honest, thoughtful, and avoid extremes.
Gwaine,
Outside of the extreme statements, the cold hard facts are still presented, and ignored.
The arguments for the pro-tithing side are very minimal and watery. They are not numerous, nor are they persuasive. Go ahead and try to find a pro-tithing thesis book. You probably can’t find one over 15 pages.
I’ll tell you why i use emotional testimony and abuse stories as support against tithing. They seem to ignore the factual argument, but it is effective in other ways. There are thousands and thousands of people who believe that the tithe is not required, but have no passion to stand up against it. They know the bible doesn’t command the tithe, but yet they passively allow it as a benchmark. The arguable issue now is not to debate whether or not tithing is un-biblical, but to persuade them how the abuse, and functionality of tithing is destroying people, their relationship with God, and their ability for complete stewardship.
According to you these issues should stay out of the debate, but I’m sorry, they don’t belong out of the debate. I’m not trying to convince others that tithing is not commanded. I’m trying to spark a flame under people to not be passive about the subject.
There is absolutely nothing passive about this subject. These un-passive people, don’t need facts, theology, or dictionary definitions; they need motivation to speak up about what they already believe.
I believe that tithing is an abusive and damaging philosophy. Defending this position goes beyond the facts, and logical dissertations. If i just wanted to argue strictly the cold hard facts, my article would be 3 paragraphs long. and i’d be done with it.
Thank you, Jared.
Granted, while extreme statements may not be the concern presently, on either side I deeply resent dishonest and hypocritical statements or ideas used as a bastion for arguing “truth” – and this includes appeals to “tactics” and emotional testimonies against the subject. It is simply risible to point to an anti-tithing “thesis” as if that in itself settles the matter. I haven’t seen proponents of those “thesis” being able to sustain their arguments when I engage them (already cited an example with Russell E. Kelly, Ph.d on another blog).
That there are “thousands and thousands of people” who believe one thing or the other about tithing, does not in itself justify the fallacious arguments often used in opposing tithes. One could as well use that same fallacy to justify an argument that DENIES the deity of Jesus Christ just because there are “thousands and thousands of people” who believe that Jesus is not God (never mind that they know what John 1:1 states). Unfortunately, this is the sort of excuse that most anti-tithers resort to – in their belief that just because they number in the “thousands”, therefore they must be “right” while everyone else who disagrees with them is “wrong”.
What you call ‘cold, hard facts’ are flimsy excuses, not “facts”. Many people could whine, grumble and complain about anything they don’t like – not because the thing in itself is evil, but often simply that their reactions are misplaced. This is true even with other experiences – for instance, if someone has made up their mind to disavow Christ, they would often look for every “thesis” that supports an “anti-Christ” argument. So, we can understand why anything used in arguing against tithing sounds so appealing to anti-tithers; and yet these folks have not demonstrated a good grasp of the subject for their arguments. Example? How do you intelligently and Biblically justify anyone arguing the common and often repeated reaction that people cannot pay their bills because of “tithing”? Let’s just be honest with ourselves as Christians and refrain from this ungodly tactic of “anything-is-a-good-enough-argument-as-long-as-it-is-ANTI-tithing”.
It should be clear to you that I’m not being passive about this subject. When people assert such lines as that they “believe that tithing is an abusive and damaging philosophy”, my response is simple: would you be willing to tell that to God directly to His face? If He knew that it was a ‘damaging philosophy’, it would be like saying He imposed such a “damage” upon His people under the OT, and the Jesus Himself must have sustained that “damage” to the Jews in the NT! Further, people who make such statements are unwittingly impinging on the character of God.
You see, just because anyone believes anything against tithes does not therefore justify their belief that it is “evil, unfair, damaging”, etc. People may have abused tithing (just as they have abused so many other things); but such abuses do not mean we should therefore conclude that tithing in itself is a “damaging” philosophy. What we need to do is engage the abuses directly, not making strained and untenable excuses to mislead people who are in the habit of hanging their grumbling of “unpaid bills” on tithes.
Shalom.
The fact that people can’t pay bills, or are scammed by preachers, or go into debt, or get bitter about tithing has never, ever been a basis of my argument why tithing is not commanded. These issues are simply cause and effect arguments. They are not a substitute for scripture. I will never tell you that those issues are cold hard facts that support why tithing is not commanded for the the NT Church.
You are completely taking my words out of context. Tithing is a damaging philosophy under a Church that is supposed to be directed and funded by the Spirit. Tithing was not a damaging philosophy under the OT. The levites were commissioned by the law, and therefore the levites were compensated by the commands of the law as well. In the NT men and women are commissioned by the calling of the Holy Spirit, and therefore their compensation should also come from the same entity. The law has no authority to enforce others to pay for a ministry that the law did not call! The Spirit is the sole authority to call us to fund those that the Spirit has also called to preach. This is a system of checks and balances.
Imagine if U.S. congressmen used the Canadian constitution to regulate their pay? It is impossible, and illegal. The same goes if the old covenant instructs how to pay what the new covenant has commissioned. The Spirit ordains our ministers, and the Spirit is the sole authority to provide others to provide for them. You cannot mingle 2 constitutions together, where one is in charge of ordaining and the other in charge of funding.
I would be willing to talk to God directly about how tithing is damaging the NT Church. I believe it does. I am not impinging on the character of God because i believe that He is disappointed how tithing is leading his people when he sacrificed everything to leave the Holy Spirit to guide us in these issues.
God tore the veil to the holy of holys to restore direct communication and a personal relationship with Him. He also gave us his Spirit as a way of enabling communicating with Him. Tithing was in place because Israel had no communication with God outside of their priest. They needed laws in place that dictated how their religious operations functioned and how they were funded.
We believe God is alive, and yet we give to him as if He isn’t, and can’t speak to us. Tithing was for a people who had no direct communication with God. The veil was in place signifying that they had no access to Him either.
The Israelites couldn’t fathom a God that was living in them, and one that could instruct them on how they could individually give. They had a veil that was between them and God, and yes, tithing was a perfect solution as long as the veil was there.
If Spirit led giving is the perfect solution now, then i believe that other giving practices are damaging compared to it. If there were 2 doors, one with a million, and one with 1 dollar, and you had to choose which one, wouldn’t you want someone to let you know which one had the million? I am a whistle blower for the million dollar door. I believe that Spirit led giving is not only Scripturally relevant, but also practically as well.
Lol, pardon me, I don’t mean to be crude; but you seem to be committing the same fallacious mistakes with many people who argue against tithing. To be sure, I’m not taking your words out of context, but rather asking you to face up to the implications of your strained arguments. Let’s see a few of those misconceptions.
You didn’t tell me WHY it is a “damaging philosophy”, but merely reacting along the convenient fallacy that appeal to many people who have made up their minds that it is against “the church”.
The Church is not “funded by the Spirit” – rather, it is funded by believers. There’s no gimmick to excuse this fact, unless you want to argue semantics here. Many people draw their anti-tithe arguments from fausse patte (‘false leg’) sentiments. The above in yours is an example. It assumes that the difference between tithing and “Christian giving” is that only the latter is funded and directed (or led, inspired, effected, instituted, etc) by the Holy Spirit. If that is what you’re presenting here, then take a step back and ask yourself if the OT was not directed or inspired by the Holy Spirit? Making convenient statements to argue only one side while ignoring the other side is being polarised.
Under the OT, the Spirit of God directed what the Jews did – He was deeply involved in their lives, although not many Christians see that fact. When you say that “The Spirit ordains our ministers”, you’re making a strained argument as if to largely ignore the fact that it is the same Spirit that ordained ministers in the OT (see Num. 11:16-17, 25-26; Judg. 3:10; 6:34; 1 Sam. 16:13; etc).
My apologies, but you seem to be regurgitating the same retired arguments that I’ve already addressed on this blog (see: http://churchtithesandofferings.com/blog/difference-between-spirit-led-freewill-grace-giving/#comment-2501 – Difference between Spirit-led Giving and Tithing). However, if you’re still doubtful about this point, I’d be glad to point you to so many verses that demonstrate that the Holy Spirit directed the lives of the Jews under the OT.
Sorry, another red herring. The new covenant is not like a “constitution”; and the there’s no denying the fact that Christians under the new covenant still appeal to the OT Law for many new covenant practices. Your analogy of the U.S. congressmen and the Canadian constitution has gaping holes. If it is “illegal” to appeal to the OT Law in one case, it is illegal to cut corners and appeal to the same OT Law in so many other instances. This selective reading is one of the issues that anti-tithers have not addressed – they use these strained arguments to force a conclusion against tithes; but the same folks will appeal to the same OT Law to argue against such issues as the place of women in Church and marriage! Yet, none of these folks will remember to make that same extreme assertion that you “cannot mingle 2 constitutions together!!”
However, if you would like to reconsider this issue further, please tell me: is it not the same OT LAW that the apostle Paul used in arguing for “Christian giving” in 1 Cor. 9:8-14? Em, I haven’t yet come across an anti-tither who could deny that fact; but even more interesting, these same folks will never tell you the same thing that “you cannot mingle 2 constitutions together“. So, why the selective reading, double standards and unnecessarily polarised assertions in your assumptions?
Lol, that’s yet another convenient remark that misses the point. You’re arguing here as if what made Israel’s (or anybody’s) communication with God was “tithing”. Please.
Tithing had nothing to do with anyone’s access in communicating with God – it was not established to enhance or hinder communication between God and any man; nor does Scripture teach any such idea that “tithing was a perfect solution” vis-a-vis the veil. I’ve already offered a few pointers to address this issue in the link referred to above, noting that there are many instances where people communicated with God without involving any prophet or priest (please see the relevant link). This is the sort of manufactured ideas people design to argue against tithes, whereas on closer examination they are just plain untenable from a Biblical perpsective.
You’re free to believe whatever you may, and I respect that. However, if it mixes up ideas for the sake of convenience, it won’t hold any substance. And that is what I’ve been trying to point out in my engaging your ideas.
The idea that only the Christian giving is “Spirit-led” is largely misplaced and ignoring the fact that people were led by the Spirit under the OT as well. Further, have you ever considered that some of the verses outlined in the NT epistles for giving were taken directly from the OT Law? Does that shock you? If it does, you really haven’t grasped this subject adequately – and I’d be glad to point them out to you. If it is not shocking to you, then good: you would still need to face up to the dilemma of arguing for “Spirit led giving” as ONLY a matter for Christians.
I’ve often said to my friends and many others: listen to what people say, but never make yourselves the victims of other people’s arguments by repeating their ill-considered arguments and ideas as your own.
Please go back and carefully reconsider this subject and avoid unnecessarily polarised statements that are ill-considered and unbalanced for your persuasions. Where you may be interested, I’d be willing to point out those verses as hinted above.
Regards.
Hi Jared,
I’ve made some replies to yours above; but for some reason it did not appear. I don’t know if it’s a tech glitch or something.
Regards.
Gwaine Thank you for your responce please answer again.
Where is being against a doctrine which forces Christians to give money extreem? I think nuetrality is being on the side of those who demand money. The status quo is extreem. If the U.S. goverment began tricking Christian folks into paying more taxes than they had to I bet you would be enraged. Is it not worse for a church to do a similar thing with the money tithe doctrine. Please consider taking a side because it seems that you are already on one side or another. Are all Christian priest? If they are in the Bible priest paid no tithes. there was never a required money tithe in the Old testement so how can anyone say there is one for Christians? Please tell us the damage that
It seems I cut of a post but Guaine how dose anti tithers do as much damage as The tithe teachers who take money. You seem to make a moral equivalancy inbetween the two camps. How can there be a middle ground? Only one side is correct.
I just told you it was a damaging philosophy because it’s not what God intended. God didn’t intend for us to pursue tithing, circumcision, or the biblical diet for righteousness. For some reason, i am getting the feeling that you don’t hold the middle ground with tithing. I believe that you are definitely pro-tithing. I do not know why you disguise yourself otherwise.
What’s your point here? Do you think i was telling you that the Holy Spirit literally comes down and puts money in an offering plate? The Holy Spirit instructs individuals into a calling. Whether it be to minister to a bum, or give money.
Woah, Wait! Why are you trying to argue with me about whether the scripture is inspired? Now i definitely now that you are pro-tithing. I hear the verse, "All scriptural is profitable" so often from pro-tithers. As if i think only the New Testament is releveant and only inspired by the Holy Spirit. I want to include 1 extra old testament law on top of the other 600 or so laws that they do not obey either, and i get painted as someone who doesn’t believe the OT is inspired. Oh please! Don’t try to throw that bone at me! You talk about me having polarized arguements?
Are you seriously confused about the differential role of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament as compared with the New Testament?
You don’t cease to amaze me. I swear you are a pro-tithing advocate. You know the problem with analogies is that they are not perfect and people will pick them apart, and not see the simple truth in them. Maybe that’s why Jesus used many illustrations to describe the kingdom of heaven, because he couldn’t even describe it perfectly in one illustration.
I don’t understand the energy you use to expose the splinter in the anti-tithing argument over the beam in the pro-tithing argument?
1. The Jews did not tithe until they entered the promised land, but notice how they did give while they were not under the tithing law in Exodus 35.
2. Only those who raised animals or farmed crops tithed. If you had another occupation, you did not tithe a single cent on your occupational income. This exempted, bankers, lawyers, politicians, tax collectors, blacksmiths, carpenters . . . etc, from paying a tithe on their occupational income.
3. Considering that Abraham only tithed on the spoils of war and not from his established wealth means that his gift didn’t even equal 10% of his own possessions. All this on top of the fact that Israel was only required to give around 1% from their increase from the spoils of war? If that doesn’t throw a monkey wrench in the complexity of tithing, then the fact that Abraham didn’t even give 10% should shoot the tithing argument right in the foot.
4. There is only an example and not even a command to tithe that pre-dated Mosaic law.
5. There is no command to tithe in the New Testament, only the command to give sacrificially, freely, liberally, and cheerfully, and provide for needs.
6. The old testament feast that celebrated the birth of the Church on pentecost, the Israelites actually gave a freewill offering( Deut. 16:10). If you want to throw in a NT parralel verse read both Deut. 16:10, and 1 Cor. 16:1 in the King James.
7. The poor did not pay tithes, they received them.
8. Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
9. The man who buried his 2 talents and was able to return 100% of what his master gave him, was still considered a bad steward.
10. The command of Jesus in Matthew 23 for the pharisees to tithe was given at the same time Jesus commanded the disciples to obey the pharisees because they sit in Moses’ seat. On top of that, Jesus commends their legalistic meticulousness, and the fact that they still tithed only food products.
11. How can tithers expell the fact that the tithe was food, and only given in the promised land; and yet somehow justify how the percentage should be piggybacked into the NT?
12. Is it possible that tithing can be both a starting point and an eternal principle?
13. Why are offerings all of a sudden a freewill, Spirit led function when specific percentages for offerings were required in the old testament as well?
14. Here are two solutions: Where should our giving begin? Where should our giving end? – Which one should we teach?
15. The tithing rebuke in Malachi was mentioned with a curse, which was first introduced during the Mosaic law.
16. All this on top of the historical fact that Abraham obeyed a babelonian law that required him to pay a tithe of the spoils of war, and another historic fact that shows no record of the early church tithing or commanding the tithe for the first few centuries.
I don’t know if you are simply looking for a NT verse that plainly says, "thou shalt stop tithing", you will not find it just like you won’t find any verse that says to continue tithing or to morph tithing into the way the Church collects and uses it today also.
So you think that paul is reinstituting an Old Testament command to the corinthians "do not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn"? Really? Or do you think Paul is reinstituting a principle? Paul was carrying in the wisdom of the Old Testament law, not the Old Testament law itself. This is why people say follow the Spirit of the law. This is why i personally think that standards in giving are beneficial, integral, and important, but by no means is the tithing law carried into the New Testament. Principles that God wants us to obey are found in the lessons, not in the exercises.
You misunderstand what i said. The gift of the Holy Spirit was the enhancement, the veil was the hinder. The tithe was a law in place for those who didn’t have the enhancement. You can’t find a verse that shows someone with the Spirit while tithing either.
You mean our communication with God follows the same route as those of the Old Testament? Serious? You mean the veil was just some creative scheme that God thought of to scare some people into thinking that they did not have direct access to him?
I could very well be wrong here, but i do believe that the Spirit fell occasionally on individuals for short periods of time. I don’t remember a time when the Spirit fell upon a group of people, or even falling on them for an eternal time. I certainly realize that the Holy Spirit was present in the Old Testament, but not in the unversal and eternal way the Spirit is present today. The Spirit helps you in decisions that the bible has no absolute answer for. I don’t know why i’m even arguing Spirit led giving, because whether or not you believe in tithing, you practice it anyways. You even know that the Israelites didn’t consult the Holy Spirit about their offerings, and yet here we are today, acting like it’s His job today to guide our above and beyond giving as if we couldn’t simply follow suit with how the Israelites gave offerings in the old testament, just like we follow suit with their tithing. If you do find a verse in the Old Testament where the Spirit of God comes upon someone while they were giving, i would really like to see how they gave.
It absolutely doesn’t shock me because i digest the Spirit and the Wisdom of Old covenant commands. Being under the New Covenant, i am not under the letter. If a 10% benchmark doesn’t SCREAM "letter" of the law to you, than i don’t know what other old covenant benchmark will? How can we scream "legalism" and "letter of the law" when it comes to benchmarks for circumcision, feasts, biblical diets, rituals, and not when a benchmark for giving is introduced?
Out of all i have said to you over the past days, i had to at least have had 1 or 2 statements that an open minded man could consider un-polarized and not ill or unbalanced, and i have yet to hear you agree with anything. Whether you think it is a principle or starting point, i don’t know, but you are obviously pro tithing. I believe that your accusation about being polarized, and ill considered is simply your way to win an argument about tithing over me without discussing the issue. Don’t worry, you are not the first to do this. Many people on this issue argue with me about my delivery, my demeanor, my words, my background, my education, my age. They use everything they can to sidetrack the issue away from the facts. They find any way they can to disqualify everything i’ve said so that they do not have to address the real issues about tithing. All you have to do is prove how ill conceited i am, and there you have it, you do not have to lose a tithing argument because you’ve never actually got into it. You are just arguing my delivery, which is ironically ill conceited and a sidetrack from the facts.
Jared, thank you for replying.
You offered a personal bland statement about tithing being a damaging philosophy – not because you had a good reason to point to from Scripture. That’s why I queried it, and you’ve only managed to repeat the same bland statement.
Second, you’re the one who has often said that your anti-tithing stance is more an appeal to “tactics”, even though I pointed out that appealing to such frivolous gimmicks is ungodly in attempting to establish “truth”.
Third, I pointed you to some misplaced arguments and strained assertions you have made concerning those under the OT, which you have regurgitated here ( http://churchtithesandofferings.com/blog/difference-between-spirit-led-freewill-grace-giving/#comment-2501 – Difference between Spirit-led Giving and Tithing).
Fourth, I also made clear that tithing had nothing to do with anyone’s access in communication with God – which by extention was not argued in Scripture as a matter of making anyone “righteous”. These misplaced and decorative drollery do not add one dot to strengthen your anti-tithing arguments; and that’s why I take care to outline the real issues involved and bleach the fallacies from the facts.
It’s no use trying to accuse me one way or another just because I don’t agree with your strained arguments – you would only be confirming what I’ve often said, that anti-tithers often assume that anyone who does not agree with them is necessarily wrong while they “MUST” be right. I’ve openly stated my stance publicly: I’m neither for nor against tithing, because often is the case that people on either side resort to otiose and tenuous assertions and gimmicks to force a conclusion rather than an honest appraisal of the subject, which they have not been able to sustain when closely examined. In due course, I shall share with you why I’m neither neutral nor passive about this subject.
I wondered what point you had intended in making such a non-issue about the Spirit funding the church. We all know that believers in both the OT and NT fund themselves as led by the Holy Spirit; so trying to device a quip to plaster your own idea against tithe was a non-starter.
It’s obvious I’m not, so if you’ve got something more cogent to say, please do. I offered genially that if you’re in doubt, I would be glad to point you to the Bible and show you the case I made; an example being the other link where you wrongly asserted that Abraham et al did not have any communication with God EXCEPT through a priest! That was an obvious fallacy that needed to be corrected since I see it is the very same thing that is repeated ad infinitum as an excuse for misrepresenting this subject.
Even so, you only managed to rehash Russell E. Kelly’s retired arguments against tithing, and I could take them point by point (including his 140 questions), here or anywhere else you may invite me to do so. Rather, than litter your blog with endless arguments, let me offer you a concise answer to the number of points you rehashed:
This is an illustrous example of how controverted the anti-tithes argument is. Like I said, a rehash from Russell doesn’t help here – he tried to argue that Christian giving should not be by “any commandment”, and here you unwittingly sang his contradiction by making NT giving a “command” – directly removing the clause of “freedom” in #8. However, this leads me to #16, viz:
Abraham did NOT obey a Babylonian “LAW”, for he was not “REQUIRED” to tithe by any “LAW” to the Babylonians. This idea about the Babylonian interpretation is a convenient glib conjured by people who have refused to see plainly what Scripture teaches, for it first argues that Melchizedek was a pagan priest who did not know or worship the same God as Abraham did. If that were the case, besides the numerous questions you have to answer, the implications would be that Abraham tithed to a pagan priest who did not know nor worship the same God as Abraham, and then God established His own Son as High priest after the order of that Babylonian pagan priest!
It would do you a world of good to read what Scripture teaches rather than rehash such voodoo imaginations from people like Russell. Melchizedek was the priest of the most high God (Gen. 14:18 and Heb. 7:1). That it is the same “most high God” that was known and worshipped by the Jews is evident in such verses as Psalm 78:55-56; Daniel 5:18; etc. It’s probably because you guys have preferred Russell’s arguments to plain Scripture that is why you schlepp on this unintelligent idea to make Abraham’s tithes a matter of what was “REQUIRED” by Babylonian “LAW”.
Incidentally, I’ve addressed this same misplaced inference in another blog that a friend referred me to; (http://newborndude.blog.friendster.com/2008/10/melchizedek-was-he-a-pagan-gentile/#comment-260).
Lol. Please read my statements as simply as they appear. I did not make the inference that Paul was “reinstituting” anything from the Law, but rather that he argued for Christian giving from the same Law that anti-tithers have a habit of mishandling. I’ve made this point clear when I engaged Russell in another blog about the unhealthy attitude of being too strained on this matter; and it was your quip that “you cannot mingle 2 constitutions together“ that I addressed.
Jared, I didn’t mean to misunderstand you; but you’re often regurgitating the same redundant argument already addressed. Tithes had nothing to do with anyone’s access in communication with God – I’ve already addressed this point several times with lucid examples from Scripture to the effect to correct your misrepresentation of those whom you argued as being without the Spirit and having no communication with God except through a priest (see: http://churchtithesandofferings.com/blog/difference-between-spirit-led-freewill-grace-giving/#comment-2501 – Difference between Spirit-led Giving and Tithing). I’ve repeated this same thing SEVERAL times to you, and you just keep force-reading your mistake each time. Lol, please tell me, how many more times would you like to repeat that fallacy?
If you’re going to keep using this fausse patte sentiments to argue your flawed position, I could well bear with you. However, tithes was not what provided access for anyone to communicate with God – there’s not a single verse that teaches that fallacy you’re projecting in Scripture. You seem to be sounding like no one under the OT had any communication with God without the tithes – which seemed to be the “solution” you had inferred. Please point this out from Scripture rather than just vacantly assert it by rote.
Honestly, was that what I stated?
No worries – as to a “group of people”, please remind yourself by reading Numbers 11:25, which I have repeated several times.
No problem – but please let me know where Scripture ever shows anywhere (OT and NT) that the Spirit of God came upon anyone WHILE they were giving. If giving anything is what effected the coming of the Spirit upon anyone, please point me to such a verse, and then we can take it from there. It doesn’t matter what you choose to make of me, as I’ve never been shy of declaring my views in this matter.
I didn’t ask about the “letter” of the Law. Rather, my question was so simple. Your overreaction is indicative that you can’t hold your own ground – and it only confirms my anticipation that you would react that way. I haven’t asked for a benchmark of anything – you can’t therefore allege that into my rejoinder. This was why I challenged Marty earlier with a simple experiment and stated clearly: “If you’re comfortable with ANY giving (especially MORE and ABOVE ‘1 out of 10?)”. If you have made up your mind to misread comments, it won’t come as a surprise that you’re reading a “benchmark” into my rejoinders where I pointed to NONE!!
Please stop whinging. I’m least bothered about what anyone thinks about me, and I could shout it a thousand times and they won’t believe. That’s okay, but your allegations are not true. I do not have to agree with your false assertions if they’re misplaced – and where I find them, I have shared my points and discussed them with clear pointers from Scripture (example: http://churchtithesandofferings.com/blog/difference-between-spirit-led-freewill-grace-giving/#comment-2501 – Difference between Spirit-led Giving and Tithing). Nor do I expect anyone to swallow everything I argue hook line and sinker without carefully checking them out. It is for this reason that I often urge amicably that we should not make ourselves into the victims of other people’s arguments (and by extension, I would expect anyone to please check and re-check what I discuss from Scripture). If one does not agree with me, why should I necessarily think that he/she MUST be an anti-tither by default?
I’m not here to play “tactics” in order to win an argument – any argument – over you or anyone else. Whether or not you disagree is not a problem. If there’s something you would like us to discuss, please share – but where you make assertions you can’t defend from Scripture and expect me to applaud you, it would be a disservice to your blog indeed, and a risible adventure for anyone who takes that approach. When you offered my in another thread how to discuss this issue, I gave at least 3 outlines that may be helpful, and indicated that I was also open to dialogue. It’s funny how people just ignore what is said and quickly run on to make flawed allegations while expecting an applause.
I don’t belong to that list, as surely as I’ve not argued your age, background, etc. Nor am I interested in disqualifying “everything” you’ve said; yet you can’t argue that I’ve side-tracked from what you presented, and that is what I’ve focused on instead of arguing away from your premise into something else.
I’m sorry if you see yourself as “conceited” – that has never been inferred in my rejoinders. The “facts” you long for have been offered, which is what I have addressed and quoted the links several times and also pointed out a few of the areas where I thought were “fausse patte” sentiments that had nothing to do with people’s access in communication with God – nor have you pointed me to any verse that stated that those assertions were carried.
On the whole, I keep my fingers crossed that we would all learn to not be polarised on either side. It’s of little interest to me whatever anyone thinks of themselves; but I don’t hold people pejoratively when I discuss with them.
Regards.
(Note: this was an event that occured about 5 years ago)
Gwaine,
I wasn’t making an excuse to not pay tithes. I was merely saying that at the church I used to attend, they preached heavily on tithing. I had just gotten saved and baptized a few months prior and was ready to grow in my faith.
After some great and convicting sermons, I started to tithe.
After a few weeks of faithfully tithing, I got behind on our mortgage, car note, electricity bills, etc. and yet, I continued to tithe ten percent.
On one Sunday morning, a check we wrote for tithing bounced at the bank and was returned for insufficient funds.
The next Sunday morning, my wife and I were called into the pastors office and were confronted with the bounced check.
We told them that we wrote their check first and that we wanted to tithe by faith. However, we had some bills to pay that we were behind on and those things must have come out of the bank account before the church check was sent through.
Our pastor told us, “You can’t give what you don’t have.” I thought, “That’s not what he was preaching in all those tithing sermons.”
He was preaching that if I didn’t tithe, then I’m robbing God of what’s His.
He was preaching that if I didn’t tithe ten percent, then ninety percent was cursed.
In other words, he was a hypocrite!
Don’t get me wrong, I desire to give to those in need. I have given to the poor when I have food, clothes or money with me. I give according to what God has blessed with and I give out of love for Jesus. As a matter of fact, Jesus said when you give to the poor brethren, you give to Him.
I want to give to to the church but I really don’t know where that money is going. Am I just paying for the pastor’s luncheon with a few other church members or its it going to the poor, hungry, naked and in prison?
I prefer to give to those who are poor as Jesus instructed, in secret. I don’t need to hold my hand up in church to get an envelope so I can write a check and put my name on it and make sure that everyone sees me putting it in the plate as it passes down the isle.
I don’t need to hold my tithe up in the air above my head and say a prayer in hopes that God will bless me a hundred-fold in return for my generous tithe.
God wants me to give but with the right heart. There is a difference between tithing and giving. Tithing is done under the Law is by command. Giving is done by love for Jesus and with the heart. God wants me to be a cheerful giver and without condemnation, pressure or guilt.
Jesus said, “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith (NKJV).”
Jesus said that there are more important things than tithing.
1. Justice
2. Mercy
3. Faith
Do you have those attributes? Have you mastered them yet? If not, maybe we should work on those and take control over them before we start worrying about the tithe.
Of course, Jesus was talking to those who were under the Law and if you are under the law, then you should tithe.
However, as Gentile Christians we are not under the Law, but under the Law of Grace. By obeying Jesus’ commands of loving God first and loving our neighbors as we love ourselves, we have fulfilled all the Law and the Prophets of the Old Testament.
Blessings,
Marty
@freewill,
Thank you for your concerns. Let me briefly address them:
On the contrary, I’m not occupying a middle ground between two camps, nor am I being neutral or passive. If you carefully go through my concerns, you’d find that I deplore extremes on EITHER side; and it’s quite unfortunate when Christians would have to resort to “tactics” to discuss “truth”.
Rather than a middle ground, or playing into either camp with extreme assertions that are misplaced, my eyes have always been on 2 Cor. 9:7-8, which was what I quoted after replying to Marty: “Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; … And God is able to make all grace abound toward you.”
When someone says that “only one side is correct”, they may be largely unware of the many fallacies in the arguments of those that those they suppose are “correct”. Let me take just one example: if someone argues that Melchizedek was a pagan priest who did not know nor worship the same God as Abraham did, where would you expect me to stand? Now, I have found quite a number of people on EITHER side (pro- and anti-thiers) making this same fallacious argument; but the moment I rejected that argument, it put me outside both camps arguing paganism for Melchizedek! You are free to choose whether or not to believe that arguments; but between both camps making the same arguments, who is “correct” and who is “wrong”? What this illustrates is simple: people say I have to be on one side – preferrably on their preferred side – but when both sides argue what they can’t defend from Scripture, my friends get uneasy and even offended that I’m completely outside both camps arguing that oft-repeated mistake. This is why I’m being careful in engaging people’s views. I don’t care what anyone calls themselves on either side of the debate; but what is far more important to me is that they can point me to God’s Word in all simplicity and not make wild statements that they cannot defend from Scripture.
As regards your enquiry, people cannot use either tithes or “Spirit-led” giving to FORCE anyone to give anything! Using one or the other to project a false idea is as manipulative and unethical for Christians as we would disavow in any ungodly practice at anytime. But what is the “real issue” at the end of the day – is it just “10%”, or “MORE THAN 10%”, or rather people being MANIPULATIVE with disguised language? I’ve said several times that I’m not stuck on 10% or any percentage for that matter (whether anyone believes that or not); for whatever one gives is also a percentage of what they possess. The more serious concern for me is the strained arguments that people use to manipulate their own position either way – the example above about Melchizedek being a case in point. So, does Melchizedek have to be “a pagan priest” just to argue for ‘pro-tithe’ or ‘anti-tithe’? Is that not an example of being manipulative in Biblical exegesis?
As in my challenge to Marty, here again: “If you’re comfortable with ANY giving (especially MORE and ABOVE ‘1 out of 10?); or if you’re rather not comfortable giving anything at all (ie, ‘0 out of 10?) – DO AS YOU MAY!” Does that sound like I set a “BENCHMARK” anywhere? In matters like this, let everyone be “fully persuaded in his own mind” (Rom. 14:5 and 2 Cor. 9:7-8) rather than applauding the otiose assertions of people who cannot intelligently defend their vacant assertions from God’s Word.
Shalom.
Hi Marty,
Glad to read from you again. Please don’t misinterpret my persuasion on this – and you can see where I stand in these matters from my rejoinders to both Jared and freewill.
Your pastor may have let you down, and perhaps that’s why you referred to him as a hypocrite. It seems you only confirmed the bigger issue that is of more concern to me than any percentages (1%, .1%, 10%, 15%, etc.) – bigger issue in the sense that people are being manipulated more than they realise, and often we are all too quick to blame it all on tithes. The gimmick in this sort of thing is that we worry about “1 out of 10″ (10%), and then come back patting ourselves on the back that we’re giving “freely” and ABOVE that same thing we worry about. When are we believers going to refrain from this flawed logic?
Nothing has shifted from my position, and again I would repeat it here: “If you’re comfortable with ANY giving (especially MORE and ABOVE ‘1 out of 10?); or if you’re rather not comfortable giving anything at all (ie, ‘0 out of 10?) – DO AS YOU MAY!” One “unpaid bills” cannot be blamed on tithes or ANY tithe of giving.
Em, dear Marty, I should go it easy with you (since we’re all seeking to mature in the faith). But then, WHO ever told you that “grace” is a “Law” (the Law of grace‘)?! You’re making your case even far more tedious for yourself – there’s no such thing as the “law of grace”, for it’s the funniest misnomer I ever read.
However, for those who often make this argument that “tithing is done under the Law is by command“, please go back and re-read what most anti-tithers have argued. On the one hand they tell you as a Christian to give NOT as a “command”; and then we come across the same people who disavow tithing arguing that they give by a “command” in the NT. This is the same manipulation that weakens the strained arguments on either side. Please be consistent: if you detest ANY giving because of a “command”, then you have no business giving ANYTHING as a “command” at anytime! This is the same trap that people fall into and then come back complaining that they are being “FORCED” into giving money.
Regards.
Gwaine,
I am interested in seeing an argument that you entered in with a pro-tither?
Lol, Jared, I’m not that polarised, sorry. Rather than adopt a partisan spirit of being for either of the two extremist camps, I’m more interested in what anyone is saying – if they argue Biblically or being vacantly assertive.
I’ve given you links where I’ve discussed some issues and stated a few things – even with some who say they are tithers.
One such example:
Someone by the username of “another believer” shares with me that he/she is a tither: “i pay my tithes but i won’t allow my house payment to go unpaid”. In response I also stated that: “I have no problem with anyone tithing or choosing to not do so” – I did not start jumping up and down the street that here is someone who is a tither, and therefore I “must” agree with him/her. (here is the blog: http://www.christianpf.com/obeying-god/comment-page-1/#comment-9603 ).
What this means is simple: it is not a “benchmark” that is of concern to me – and there is NOT a single place where I have tried to argue FOR 10%. Not a single time in your blog or elsewhere. What is of far more importance to me is this: when people discuss, they should be careful to hold a healthy exegesis, and it does not matter to me whatever they call themselves. This was why I was concerned that Russell in that blog was “appealing to that same misleading idea to press on others” that he himself was unable to sustain from Scripture.
What you’re doing is making a tedious case for yourself, because you have adopted the mindset that I “MUST” be pro-tither by defualt simply because I do not agree with your assertions which you have been unable to sustain in Scripture. So, if you seem to be desperate to label me as such, could be the reason why you may be assuming that I have been partisan and sympathetic to pro-tithe teachers?
Believe me (or not), if I saw something which you stated that could not be faulted, I would stand to defend it – not because you’re a tither or anti-tither. And whatever was anyone’s position, if there was something unbiblical which they are asserting, my responses would still be the same. Just as the same, I have noted earlier on another page of this blog that there was much to appreciate in the article on the homepage – so that you know I’m not taking a default to harangue you at every point.
In all this, if there’s something you may wish to draw my attention to, I’m still very open to dialogue. If not, I wish you well all the same.
Many blessings.
Gwaine,
I would love to respond, and respond, and respond some more, but i cannot continue this conversation because of time. I know that you have pointed out some polarized ideas that i have stated, and i agree with some of them. The pagan Melchizedek is one of them that i’ve been meaning to edit out of my website for some time.
Anyways, we gonna have to agree to disagree on the other issues. Thanks for taking the time to discuss with me.
- jared bartholomew
Hi there, if I may chip into this discussion which was actually a bit of a chore to follow. I would direct my comments at Gwaine.
I noticed that the discussion was almost attaining a philosophical dimension rather than being scriptural based. It is not about people not being able to pay their bills or about people being burdened with a ten percent bench mark. It is about what the scriptures say. The doctrine of tithing is not a new testament doctrine, it does not enjoy scriptural support. For the new dispensation, people are encouraged to give what they can afford and are happy with and not a prescribed minimum 10%. Thats it.
What’s rather ironic is, God is more interested in your relationship with him than with the amounts of money you give to him sacrifically. This you ought to do without leaving the other undone.
Gwaine don’t be philosophical with God’s word, going about trying to poke holes in everyone’s view. State your point and support it with scriptures so we all could learn.
Hi Tony,
Thank you for your observations. My rejoinders were not philosophical; and yes, your requests have already been met all through the points I made, viz:
1. I’ve stated my point clearly;
2. I’ve offered Scripture for my persuasions;
3. I’ve not been going about trying to poke holes in everyone’ view;
4. I have not argued to set ANY benchmark for anyone at all – please go back and see the case yourself;
5. I have not been unduely concerned with HOW MUCH anyone gives (which was why I offered a challenge that people should “DO AS YOU MAY” and not excuse their “unpaid bills” on tithes or any other type of giving);
6. “This you ought to do WITHOUT LEAVING the other undone” – which is precisely WHY I’ve been very wary and cautious of polarised arguments that strain towards either of the extreme camps.
It’s okay if you may not have seen that my discussions were based directly on Scripture; which makes me wonder what I have been quoting, pointing out, and discussing from the “Bible”. But whatever the case, I’ve often noted that strained arguments (whether “for” or “against”) which resort to all kinds of extraneous assertions often tend to be weak when closely examined in the light of SCRIPTURE.
I’m not trying to win any arguments either way (“for”, “against”, nor even “neutral”). Yet, when I make a response anywhere, my point has always been to appeal for a healthy balance on the subject being discussed. It is not so much any percentage that is of concern to me as much as that people pay some close attention to the IMPLICATIONS and PRACTICAL VALUE of what they argue for.
Regards.
Hi Gwaine,
I have painstakingly tried to read all of your posts and I think I understand where you are coming from; you are against extremes on both end of the spectrum. Which is indeed something to think about.
I am tempted to agree with you that condemning the doctrine of tithing because it is a burden is really not a wholesome reason to reject the teaching BUT that could be an indication that something is wrong with. Jesus says that His yoke is easy and burden light.
However, reading through your comments, I am tempted to arrive at the conclusion that you are an anti-tither. You have quoted the cornerstone of New Testament giving; cheerfully giving what you can afford. This makes me wonder why all the arguments in the first place. Those who advocate tithing have actually taken to it to very unbiblical proportions making it a tool of extortion quite like the Catholic’s sale of indulgence. You are told that if you do not pay your tithe, God would be angry with you and He will punish you ever so severely. Some churches have made it a requirement for membership as well as leadership. They misquote and misapply scriptures to support their stance. Congregants are coerced and forced to part with a mandatory 10% of their monthly income even though quite a number of them cannot genuinely afford it. It then becomes a chore, a burden and one does it rather grudgingly. It then begins to look like trying to please God by works or trying to earn God’s approval through acts of good will. That is unbiblical.
Those that say that they give over 10% have a problem in my opinion. Who wants to know what they give? Are they expecting man’s commendation, a pat on the back or some brownies points? Like you said let every man be fully persuaded in his heart in his dealings with God without trying to compel others to do the same. Which is one of the problems with this doctrine of tithing. If it is of God, why should people be compelled to do it?
We are all saying the same thing; give what you can afford and give it cheerfully. That being said though, it would seem like we are straining a gnat while swallowing a camel as in; giving is not the most important aspect of Christianity, our relationship with God is.
Tony,
I cannot be thankful enough for your wisdom.
However, it may be difficult for me to persuade people about my nonpartisan stance: which is, I’m not particular about tithing or not tithing. Yet, that is not to say that I’m therefore passive, neutral or apathetic to the subject. Rather, within the matrix of 2 Cor. 9:7 (“Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give”), I’ve seen some people who have indeed “purposed” in their hearts to tithe a certain amount of their income to the Lord – and I’ve seen His hand blessing them evidently! The amazing thing is that these dear folks were deep in debt BEFORE they took upon themselves to tithe, and there are many people who can attest to the evidence of the Lord rewarding their faith.
This sort of testimonies broaden my convictions that we cannot stereo-type the ways of God: which is why I’m often deeply moved when I encounter extreme arguments, whether “for” or “against” tithing. I think the core problem is shared by both of us here, and many others elsewhere – which is, the tendency of some teachers to reach their conclusions through extraneous (and often dubious) arguments, as was aptly expressed in yours:
True – and I’ve seen this happen again and again on BOTH sides of the tithing debate.
In things of this nature, I believe that Rom. 14:5 could be helpful – “Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind”.
Cheers.
Hi Gwaine,
Thank you too. Your line of argument made me reflect on this issue really deeply. We on both sides of the divide have no right to force our opinions on anyone. The fact is if everything is done UNTO the Lord, then there is no problem.
However, I would not lie to you; I have felt very aggrieved over this tithe doctrine because I was taken advantage of and even made to feel guilty because of it. I did my research and found out the truth and was liberated. From time to time the old hurts do appear when some unscrupulous preacher uses it as a weapon of mass extortion; it cuts my heart.
That not withstanding, the amount to give has to be a personal decision and not the result of blackmail, arm-twisting and threats. Maybe we have pushed the pendulum too far, human nature being what it is.
You are right that there are some people that believe in the 10% and have received financial blessings, that would be because they made the decision by themselves to tithe and where not coerced into it. This brings to mind the scripture that says one man considers one day holier than others while another considers all days alike and as far as they both do it unto the Lord, it is fine. Also anything not done in faith is certainly a sin.
Anyways, God bless you and I sure would like to pick your brains on some other topics. You can drop a line or two on my blog.
Ta
I don’t think anyone here has a problem with anyone pledging 10% of their income to God. It’s not the pledge, nor the percentage in and of itself that anti-tithers are against.
Anyone is free to purpose in their heart to give 10%. That is not the argument here, nor will it ever be the argument, for me at least.
The argument is all about the “purpose”. Obeying the tithe because you think it is commanded is not a biblical purpose. The problem is that their purpose is unbiblical from the very roots. This is not a polarized statement.
Ok, let’s just say that a pro-tither is truly cheerful and honored to give a tenth. The maturity of their motives are still built upon the wrong truth. Good motives and wrong truth still lead down the wrong path.
I’m not arguing about giving from the heart. I’m talking about the purpose of giving based on the wrong truth.
Again, thank you Tony. Most people I’ve contacted on this issue have experiences to recount one way or the other – I deeply feel for them (and for myself). I’ll visit to enjoy your blog and drop a few lines in due course.
Many blessings.
Hi Jared,
I’ll appreciate your thoughts as always. However, there are a few concerns that continue to surface as worrisome.
Not true – that is precisely what people like Russell Kelly have argued hard and long against! You may not be arguing against 10%, but appealing to the arguments of those who are specifically against “10%” does not convince anyone otherwise.
If we are consistent in our persuasions, then we should also avoid partisan remarks against anyone on either side, such as this against pro-tithers like “the maturity of their motives are still built upon the wrong truth”. You perhaps may wish it so, but that is not a healthy way to dialogue. How would YOU know the motives of everyone who tithes in order to judge such motives as “built upon the wrong truth”?!
Perhaps, this problem of unceremoniously and frivolously adjudicating people’s motives is one reason why there’s been reactions like this:
The second problem is equally worth noting:
Just think about it for a minute: suppose I were to argue strenuously against tithes with the “wrong truth”, will that not be the same thing as to “still lead down the wrong path”?! There are many “wrong truths” that anti-tithers have used in their arguments, and some of them have been recycled ad infinitum by others who have taken the anti-tithing position by default. Should it then be inferred that they also are led down the “wrong path”?
In things like these, I’ve often appealed simply: let’s not make ourselves the victims of other people’s arguments. This is the reason why I’ve refused to adopt a partisan position and instead appeal for a healthy balance. Whatever our convictions or purpose(s) on the subject, it helps to refrain from polarised assertions.
On the whole, I’m thankful that we could have the opportunity to address several concerns on the subject. May the Lord continue to enrich your labours for His Name.
Shalom.
Not True!? I can’t account for all, but through my all the discussions i’ve been in through my blog, website, forum interaction, and groups, i have seen very very few people who say give anything, just don’t give 10%.
As far as I know, as long as a person is not pursuaded through a tithing command, Dr. Kelly is not against anyone giving 10%. I’ve read many of Dr. Kelly’s words, and i’ve never seen the statement, "give anything you want except 10%". Even if he did say that, my mouth never has uttered that argument. Holding my stance accountable to every point of view that Dr Kelly holds because i support some of his other points is definitely twisting the facts of what i stand for.
I don’t know the motives. I never said i did. I used to believe in the tithing doctrine and tithed myself with pure motives, but i was still down the wrong path. Right motives and the wrong path are still the wrong path. You believe that tithing is not for everyone, and yet, many people trap themselves and others to the chains of the tithing doctrine. I know that all they want to do is obey God’s word and be sacrificial with their giving, but they follow the wrong truth. Many false teachings believe that your way of inheriting blessings in eternity is through your motives. Are right motives what one needs in order to obtain eternal glory with the father? Or is there a way, and a truth?
Yes, you are correct, anti-tithers have used wrong truths in their arguments. But anti-tithers are correct that the NT tithing doctrine is not commanded, and that’s at least one error they are not spewing out of their mouth. On the other hand pro-tithers are not only spewing out the error of tithing, but also the error that they use to support their error. Pro-tithers, aren’t given the choice to travel the right path because they are never shown it. They are forced down the wrong path because the freewill option of giving is kept hidden by threats of curses, promises of blessings, and plain and simple misinterpretation of scripture.
@tithes,
Many thanks again. Just to point out a few inconsistencies:
I’m sorry, this deviates from your original premise and argument, viz: “It’s not the pledge, nor the percentage in and of itself that anti-tithers are against” – that’s what is false, for that’s what they have been against! If you’d like to see the evidence for this, I could offer you a ton of quotes from your own arguments and articles in your blog and website precisely to the point.
You may hardly find anti-tithers making doctored statements such as “give anything, just don’t give 10%“, but the substance of their argument has always been against anything “10%”. If it does not matter and has not been that at all, WHY have anti-tithers worried themselves endlessly about the term “TITHE”? WHY have these dear folks been worried about what anyone gives and argued AGAINST “10%”?!? You may try to play down the fact, but ‘anti-tithers’ have argued more against “10%” than anything else, and there’s no need for us to deny the reality of this or pretend otherwise.
And no, I don’t hold you personally accountable for Russell Kelly’s or anyone’s arguments – but if people resort to his misplaced theology on the subject to argue against “10%”, they make themselves the victims of his arguments, which is what I have often cautioned against.
What I wonder is why anyone would be trying to adjudicate on other people’s motives, while yet claiming that “I don’t know the motives”. Let’s grant your latest claim that you DON’T KNOW the motives, what then is the substance of your previous claim that “The maturity of their motives are still built upon the wrong truth”?! This was something that puzzled me – for if someone does not know the motives of others, would it not be preposterous for them to adjudicate on what they do not know?
While I’m not trying to be tedious, my hope has always been that we avoid strained assertions – because they cannot be sustained as valid when closely examined.
A misrepresentation of Scripture happens in BOTH camps, so don’t play this partisan gimmick repeatedly.
Anti-tithers simply assume that “tithing” is an “error”, and yet they are often tongue-in-cheek when confronted about the “10%” they decry endlessly!
Let’s just get real: if anti-tithers define tithe by default as “10%” (and that is their prevailing notion on the subject), why is it that when called to smart up for the substance of their argument, they often duck with excuses of “it is not the 10% that we are against!” This double-talk is one of the serious maladies people have in debating this issue. Who really cares what “percentage” anyone gives to warrant a serious debate AGAINST just “10%”?
However, I appreciate and share with you the concern about doctrinal error – and that is why I don’t appeal to other people’s arguments by rote for my persuasions, lest I would not be able to defend them. On either side, people may have good points for their arguments:
(a) anti-tithers say that it is UNBIBLICAL or an “error”; reason – “the BIBLE doesn’t command the tithe“;
(b) pro-tithers contend that there’s not a single verse (OT and NT) that explicitly condemns tithes.
One could deflate the arrogance of the assertion in (a) above, simply on the premise that the “BIBLE” is both the OT and the NT – so to say that tithes are not commanded in the “BIBLE” is sadly missing the point.
Yet, I often caution my friends that (as far as I know), the NT epistles do not “command” tithes; although I acknowledge the fact they are correct that no single verse condemns tithes in the “BIBLE” – not one!
The dilemma for most anti-tithers is the appeal to arguments from the OT Law, which has been grossly mishandled in their interpretations! Not only has Melchizedek been turned into a pagan priest, but for these folks, everything about “tithes” must be forced back to the Law! If that is not being hideously mischievous, tell me what is. The very “Law” that they dispel and dismiss entirely, is the same Law that they appeal to for some other “convenient” Christian doctrines.
What we need is a balance to properly identify the ‘real problems’ on money matters in our faith. We just can’t accuse “tithes” as being responsible for all our financial struggles, unpaid bills, disenchantments with our local pastors, etc.
If some Christians desire and have “purposed in their hearts” to tithe a certain amount (whatever it may be – less or more than “10%”), they should be allowed to freely do so in the matrix of 2 Cor. 9:7 – “Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give”. Or, in the exhortation of Rom. 14:5, “Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind” – even if they are persuaded to give ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!
Further, while promoting “free will” giving, we cannot use that as an argument for “NT commandment”. People should be consistent here: if someone detests giving by “any commandment”, what difference does it make whether such a commandment appears either in the OT or NT? When I read the persuasions of anti-tithers as to their reason for a NT type of giving, I sadly shake my head in disbelief – because they are many times pretending that the principles they argue for in the NT are absent in the OT!
Bottomline: nobody should use any verse from either the OT or NT to FORCE, DRAGOON, COERCE, or BLACKJACK any believer into giving ANYTHING under any “type” of offering! Just as it is unethical to force anyone to tithe, it is equally immoral to argue for a “NT command” under the disguised language of “Spirit-led giving” to pressure believers to stop tithing! “Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give” – even if they purpose to give 10% or any other percent of anything for that matter. Real freedom is not arguing from partisan assertions; but rather from seeking a proper balance from God’s Word.
Regards.
Friend Gwain
Could you please answer me directly the freewillgiver I love the debate? I understand if you are too busy. Martin Luther the great reformer came against the Catholic shurch for tithing.
When the temple was not destroyed where did Christian Jews tithe? Did they not tithe to the literal temple with the priest and levites? Did Gentile Christians ever tithe to the Jewish temple? Once the temple was destroyed Jewish Christians had no place to tithe.
Did the law of moses ever command a money tithe or a tithe of money? So why do so many Christian leaders preach a 10% money tithe? Were all Jews ever commanded to give 10%? No the Priest and the poor and the no- Jews were outside of the tithing system. Why do ministers say 10% of all Christian money belongs to the local church?
Free will giving is simple give what Jesus puts on your heart. We argue against forced Christian money tithing becase it distorts both the old and the new testement. How can we do more harm than pro tithers? Have you ever recieved money as a result of the money tithing system. I have and I believe tha I was wrong?
Please answer a few of my Questions.
Hi freewillgiver,
Thank you again for being simple – I wish mine could be as simple as you outlined your concerns. But the reason why I could not do so is that ‘Gwaine’ is neither a pro-tither nor anti-tither. I’m not trying to win a debate for pro-tithers over anti-tithers. So, while addressing your concerns, let me carefully point you to a few things that you may be missing.
Okay, but Martin Luther got a lot of doctrines wrong as well. It is quotes like this that make me say that we should not make ourselves the victims of other people’s arguments. Luther had his own persuasions for his anti-tithing stance; but he was not the final authority on the subject.
You’re making the biggest mistake of recycling Russell’s misplaced arguments for your persuasion, but I could bear with you. First, the Jews did not tithe to the Temple, it was to the priests that they brought SOME of their tithes; and other tithes were given to others besides the priests (such as widows, fatherless and the poor – Deut. 14:28-29). Bending every single case of Biblical tithes to the Law and the Temple is quite misplaced – this is why there’s so much controversy on the simple case of Genesis 14 where Abraham’s tithes had nothing to do with any Law, Temple, or even paganism.
Yes – please go and do a careful Bible study on Exodus 30:13. If you’re still in doubt, I would only be too glad to show you what you missed. Yet, in my opinion, that is not what supports an argument for NT money tithing.
I don’t know why they do so; yet, I cannot fault any church’s local principles. If that is what they have prescribed for their members, all well and good – but I would not encourage anyone to make that a condition for salvation. The bigger picture is that the term “tithe” is not ONLY 10% every single time it is used in scripture; unfortunately, this is the traditional idea that has nested in so many people’s minds.
Since you have answered your own question, I could easily pass without comments.
However, let me just chip in these:
1. The Priest also offered a tithe [Leviticus 6:19-22]. It is therefore unhealthy to assert that the Priest was outside of the tithing system.
2. As for the non-Jew (or Gentiles) who were among the congregation of Israel, there was only ONE Law that applied to everyone [Numbers 15:16 - "One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you"]. There was not a separate Law for the stranger under the same covenant that governed the lives of the Jews in Judaism.
Please, as always said, be careful in recycling arguments from others – you don’t have to make yourself a victim of their misplaced arguments.
Not all ministers force tithes on their members; and tithes are not defined as ONLY “10%” every single time in Scripture. Some local churches that preach about tithing are not as legalistic as many anti-tithers assume; yet, these local churches understandably use the tithing to help their ministries.
If “freewill” is the only defence for your argument, you’re vacantly wasting your time. Those under the OT Law also gave “freely” as God stirred their hearts to do so; here are a few (emphasis mine)-
1.”Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring me an offering: of every man that giveth it WILLINGLY WITH HIS HEART ye shall take my offering.” [Exodus 25:2, KJV]
2. “And they came, every one whose heart stirred him up, and every one WHOM HIS SPIRIT MADE WILLING, and they brought the LORD’S offering to the work of the tabernacle of the congregation, and for all his service, and for the holy garments” [Exodus 35:21. KJV]
3. “The children of Israel brought a willing offering unto the LORD, every man and woman, whose heart made them willing to bring for all manner of work, which the LORD had commanded to be made by the hand of Moses” [Exodus 35:29].
Notice that I’ve restricted my citations to the Law; and this was simply to show what I’ve often noted – in BOTH the OT and NT, people were stirred by God to offer willingly and freely; and even where they did so by a “commandment”, they also rejoiced in it (cf Deuteronomy 16:10-11).
My arguments are against ANY strained, polarised and misplaced assertion that cannot stand up to Scripture. Like I said earlier – “nobody should use any verse from either the OT or NT to FORCE, DRAGOON, COERCE, or BLACKJACK any believer into giving ANYTHING under any “type” of offering!” Even arguments disguised with such flowery language as “Spirit-led giving” are unfortunately immoral, because often is the case that many of those using such quips are trying to “FORCE” everyone to ’stop tithing’ – and that is also a distortion that should be deplored.
The harm you may be doing is distorting Scripture to argue an extreme position which you may not have carefully considered yourself – and it’s bad enough when such arguments are simply the recycled arguments of others who can’t defend their own misplaced eisegesis.
Well, bless your heart. I’ve never received money from anyone tithing to me – but if someone does, I’m happy for them as long as they don’t obtain it by base means.
You see, freewillgiver, although I could stand up to face the many arguments of anti-tithers from the Law, I do not necessarily appeal to a literal and legalistic application of every detail of the Law to justify an anti-tithing or a pro-tithing persuasion.
Yes, there are principles in the Bible for tithing – but WHY must we bend every thought of “tithes” to the Jewish Law and the Temple? WHY must we often conclude that the only meaning of a tithe is “10%”, when Scripture reveals otherwise? WHY must anyone make any Law to FORCE others to “stop tithing”? If somebody is uncomfortable about tithing whatever percentage (when they are NOT forced), why get unnecessarily angry, disturbed or perturbed and proverbially throw the baby out with the bath water? My apologies, but I don’t take such extreme views of things.
The point in my responses is that so many Christians are quite used to default anti-tithing arguments without calmly going through God’s Word to see for themselves what is written there on the subject. I implore you to first carefully go through those verses and STUDY them before you’re moved to deny anything. But as ever, I’d be glad to point you to further answers where you may have any doubts particularly on what I’ve offered herein.
I recognize that some very blessed ministers have good arguments on either side; yet in matters like this, Rom. 14:5 has always been helpful to keep in mind: “Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind”.
Blessings.
Anti-tithers wouldn’t care if 10%, 1%, or 50% was commanded, because it’s the command we are against. I could care less if you circumcize, and follow the biblical diet yourself, but if you think that it’s a command, and convince others that it is also, then there’s a problem. There’s no sense in me saying anything else unless you can grasp this. Your assertations are strained as well. You are trying to extract a position about the anti-tithing stance that is not found in my writings, and is not found in the majority of others as well. We say we are against tithing, in that,we are against it’s command. Yes, i know, the word "tithe" literally means a tenth, and it seems that we are just against anyone giving a tenth. Whenever you hear any anti-tither say we are against tithing, just imagine us saying we are against tithing as a command.
Finally, the truth comes out. You see nothing wrong with requiring others to give a certain percentage of their income, and you see nothing wrong with the side that says you are not required to give a certain percentage. How can you straddle the fence.
You are absolutely wrong here. You hear only what you want to. We uphold the Spirit of the law. We praise the Spirit of the law. We follow the Spirit of the law. We do not follow the letter. Now if a minimum platform in our giving does not SCREAM letter of the law, then i don’t know what else would. Anti-tithers claim to be stewards. We know that 100% belongs to God. We know that giving in any form honors God and claims him owner of our possessions. We claim that faithful, sacrificial, liberal, and cheerful giving reaps rewards. We know that giving is commanded throughout the WHOLE bible. We believe in all the principles of giving the pro-tithers believe in except that tithing is commanded for the NT Church. So please, oh please, you repeat over and over to stray away from assertions, so please do not strain at your argument and put words in my mouth or of other anti-tithers, when simply your accusations are not founded upon any facts. I am telling you that i do not believe what you claim that i believe, and yet you polarize the meaning of my words.
If people gave how the Holy Spirit convicts them to in the first place, then the tithing command is obsolete, void, and pointless. The tithing command forces you to give 10% of your income to your local church, when the Holy Spirit could be telling you to give your money to a poor widow, or a single mother, or a homeless person. You are robbing the needy when you ignore what the Holy Spirit is calling you to do. So yes, i want people to stop tithing when the Holy Spirit is trying to instruct them to give somewhere else besides their church. Also, i want people to stop tithing, if they are in debt, or if their household has needs. These are important reasons to stop tithing, and the Spirit of the Lord gives them liberty to not tithe, or at least give it outside of their church.
Dear Jared,
From your latest rejoinder, it does not appear you’ve convinced me one bit that you have a thorough grasp of this subject of tithing, nor are you aware what anti-tithers are really up against. Alleging that my arguments are strained is okay – but you’d have to do better than being inconsitent in the body of your persuasions.
This is yet another excuse, since the previous one you gave didn’t work well. However you slice it, no prevarication would cut it for you, nor for many anti-tithers in their arguments. I asked you to simply ask: if you want evidence to the fact that anti-tithers are endlessly worried about a “10%” than anything else, I would be too glad to harvest them from this blog and elsewhere. Yet, I don’t see how that it’s a mere “command” that has been the worry – more than that, I’ve already highlighted this inconsistency: “if someone detests giving by “any commandment”, what difference does it make whether such a commandment appears either in the OT or NT?”
Inspite of that, the “freedom” that many anti-tithers hoot for is weakened by their own appeal to a “NT commandment” to give. This has already been noted in my previous rejoinder as well [reply #18] – || Russell “tried to argue that Christian giving should not be by “any commandment”, and here you unwittingly sang his contradiction by making NT giving a “command” – directly removing the clause of “freedom” in #8.” || It is this inconsistency that often weaken some of the arguments of the anti-tithing position.
Not convincing – Russell Kelly is an anti-tither whose misplaced arguments are often repeated ad infinitum; yet, he’s not merely after a command but rather after anything that spells “10%”.
I wasn’t straddling any fences. So many times have I made my position clear enough:
1. In the matrix of 2 Cor. 9:7, anyone is free to purpose in their heart what they want to give – whatever that percentage is, and I have no problems with that as long as I’ve not set a benchmark for anyone. It’s their personal choice, and I should respect that.
2. Whether you purpose to give above or below “10%”, whatever you give is still a percentage – and I don’t have any problems with that either.
3. There is NOT A SINGLE TIME that I’ve applauded any side that “requires” ANYTHING from anyone! NOT ONE TIME!! If you want me to remind you, here:
In all these and more, have I anywhere argued for a certain percentage as “REQUIRED”? Is that not the very thing I have been opposed to all through my rejoinders? To be sure, I’m not one of those arguing that the ONLY meaning of “tithe” is “10%” – hence, in saying that I’ve no problem with anyone tithing, I wasn’t getting stuck on “10%”. This is why earlier in my reply [#35], I observed that if some Christians have “purposed in their hearts” to tithe a certain amount (WHATEVER it may be – LESS or MORE than “10%”), they should be allowed to freely do so in the matrix of 2 Cor. 9:7.” Does that sound like I was making a case for what is “REQUIRED”?
Lol, Jared… my position has been consistent all through. Either way, there’s no justification for anyone arguing against anything “required” or “commanded” while imposing their own “NT commandment” on others. As far as I’ve nowhere argued to make ANY type of giving a matter of what is “required”, such an idea cannot be alleged into my rejoinders anywhere.
Please dear friend, don’t be so preposterous. I’ve met so many anti-tithers who do not have a clue about the Law; and when examined, they would very quickly duck under the same excuses you’re conveniently patting yourself with.
Yet, Russell Kelly is an example of an anti-tither who has argued to “determine what to bring over from the OT Law to the Christian faith” – he was not arguing for the “spirit of the Law” as you may have asserted. Since he was harping on “ALL” 613 commandments of the OT Law to harangue others in his debate with them, I made a critical observation to him directly in line with his assertions: “If one of them is untenable, all the other 612 must be treated in precisely the same way.” He quoted that line and said: “THAT IS MY POINT”. (see the blog and my reply: http://www.christianpf.com/obeying-god/comment-page-1/#comment-9603 ).
Another example is an anti-tither who argues that paying tithes could make someone lose their salvation and land them in Hell. Apart from the fallacy of his assertion, he goes on to say, “I have warned you of the danger in observing the law of tithing or ANY OTHER old testament law for that matter.” ( http://tithing.christian-things.com/thelaw.html )
These dear folks who make so much noise about the Law may have never taken the time to digest Romans 3:31.
On my part, I’ve offered in reply #38 that – “I do not necessarily appeal to a literal and legalistic application of every detail of the Law to justify an anti-tithing or a pro-tithing persuasion.” That simply tells it all about my being well aquainted with issues of the “letter and spirit of the Law”.
You’re not the amanuensis or secretary of the Holy Spirit, so please kindly refrain from this arrogant attitude.
There are people who have been moved to tithe even when they were in debt: they obeyed without grumbling, for no one “forced” it upon them – and God honoured their faith in tremendous ways. This does not mean that they restricted their giving to ONLY “10%” or that they didn’t care for the poor, or that they ignored the needs of their households… nor that every tither should be in debt before tithing.
Jared bro, what you want to “force” upon others is your personal misgivings and disaffection towards tithing. There are no anathema for Christians who have purposed in their heart to tithe, for “10%” is not “the ONLY” meaning of that term in Scripture; nor does it stop any tither from caring for the poor or their households. You may haggle on and on about your disenchantment with the tithing issue; but I don’t see how your reactions have made a good case for your persuasions.
Blessings all the same.
Hi Jared,
It’s been quite some hours I replied to your concerns above, although it hasn’t appeared.
Many blessings.
Gwaine.
Gwaine
I just spent a while reading the blog. Gwaine spends most of his time trying to twist Jared’s words and make him say something else.
Either engage me on our Tithing-Study blog and make me look stupid in front of everybody —or else we can begn afresh here. I am not afraid to go one-on-one with anybody. I would love to hear you refute my 140 questions one at a time.
How can you say that I cannot “sustain arguments when engaged”? (post 11) That has never happened.
I’m calling your bluff.
First point in my essay: Please tell me where this is wrong. Why is not this good enough fot the church?
Christians are commanded to give freely, sacrificially, generously, regularly, joyfully and with the motivation of love for God and man. The following New Covenant free-will principles are found in Second Corinthians, chapters 8 and 9: (1) Giving is a “grace.” These chapters use the Greek word for “grace” eight times in reference to helping poor saints. (2) Give yourself to God first (8:5). (3) Give yourself to knowing God’s will (8:5). (4) Give in response to Christ’s gift (8:9; 9:15). (5) Give out of a sincere desire (8:8, 10, 12; 9:7). (6) Do not give because of any commandment (8:8, 10; 9:7). (7) Give beyond your ability (8:3, 11-12). (8) Give to produce equality. This means that those who have more should give more in order to make up for the inability of those who cannot afford to give as much (8:12-14). (9) Give joyfully (8:2). (10) Give because you are growing spiritually (8:3-4, 7). (11) Give because you want to continue growing spiritually (9:8, 10-11). (12) Give because you are hearing the gospel preached (9:13).
Russ Kelly
Thank you Friend Gwaine
I greatly enjoy your willingness to debate but I just want more clarity on your position. Jesus meant for you to post. You love to sharpen Iron I can tell. Gwaine you seem outside the status quo concerning Christian tithing. You must recognize that your formula for tithing sounds a lot like free will giving. Most evangelical churches of today teach “ten percent of all Christian money belongs to the local church” this is what I mean by the 10% money tithe doctrine is this teaching of most churches extreme in your opinion Gwaine? Is the status quo Christian money tithe doctrine extreme. Please define extreme.
“Ten percent of all Christian money belongs to the local church”
I am glad you have received no money tithe funds so your hands are very clean. Now could you preach the above doctrine that most evangelical churches preach? If you cannot then you are closer to us than to them. I bet You would get kicked out of many churches if you watered down the above definition of money tithe In front of the whole congregation. Have I misstated what most evangelical churches teach about tithes?
“ten percent of all Christian money belongs to the local church” Now what part of that statement is extreme? If any part of that statement is extreme then you have at major odds with most evangelical churches concerning tithing.
Am I wrong that most evangelical churches preach this? If you disagree with most churches teaching on the money tithe doctrine then you are closer to an anti tether than a pro tether. Are you status quo or anti- status quo? You must be closer to one than the other. Please respond. Remember if one believes this one will pay this money tithe bill first and put ones kids in Christian private school second because in this doctrine it is only to the local church.
Please name the worst 3 things about tithers and the three worst 3 things about anti-tithers. Please respond at your leisure because I know you have ministry, work, and family but please respond. I am reading all of your post and examining scripture. That Exodus scripture is not what I would call a tithe the one shekel for all but your definition of tithes seems to cover many offerings. Since most evangelical pastors preach “ten percent of all Christian money belongs to the local church” I don’t know how much of what you say is relevant. The standard doctrine is the main point. If you disagree with what most churches teach you are closer to us because you are outside of the status quo and very close to our positions with different names. I am waiting for your answers and I will respond more later friend Gwaine.
Hi Dr. Russell,
Thank you for your reply and offer for a debate. I was actually looking forward to some engagement someday in the future, and pray the Lord’s grace that would come, if He wills.
As to your 140 questions, I’ve offered Jared that could also be easily done here or anywhere else he may invite me to do so, otherwise I would not like to be tedious to him by littering his blog.
However, it’s not my style to make anyone look “stupid”, whatever the case – unless that is the assumed premise they take to engaging in dialogue on issues like this. Yet, I’m sure that Jared could stand up for his own persuasions; so your allegation that I was twisting his words is quite an immature reaction on your part.
Please don’t take it personal, as I’m not the only person who has engaged your thoughts and challenged some of your unsustained interpretations and ideas. I could show a few links where others have done so in fewer words than I could have managed. Yet, the occasion referred to in my reply #11 has been often repeated; and no, I wasn’t bluffing: ( http://www.christianpf.com/obeying-god/comment-page-1/#comment-9603 ).
First, as I’m neither pro-tithing nor anti-tithing, I’ve repeatedly stated that most of the arguments people offer for their positions on either side are polarised/strained and unhealthy. There is no need for anyone to employ extraneous ideas for their arguments just because they have preconceived persuasions on this subject – and it would not be in anyone’s best interests to make themselves the victims of such misplaced disceptation. Therefore, before one could argue either ways for what is “right” or “wrong”, their basic premise(s) and interpretations would have to be carefully considered, rather than arrive at any persuasions from demagoguery.
These ideas have been summarily addressed in the other blog where I called your attention to the point that: “This type of argument is ignoring the very fact that such qualifiers are not perculiar to the NT alone, but in very fact expressed in so many places in the OT as well!“. You then followed through with this acknowledgement thereto:
However, because many people often repeat by rote your idea expressed in your #6 above: “DO NOT give because of ANY commandment”, I’ve had to point out to our friends on this page [reply #35], that:
It is quite unfortunate when believers assume certain strained ideas for their partisan persuasions in absolute terms without due regard for the balance that Scripture presents us. It would be more helpful to reason simply, and I pray that would be the inclination of many people who increasingly become interested in the subject.
Regards.
Dear freewillgiver,
My many thanks for your penultimate reply, as well for your gracious friendship. I think most of your latest concerns have already been addressed; but as ever, I’d be glad to reconsider them.
True, while being outside the status quo, it’s important that this statement is qualified. I’m not “closer” to any camp (“pro” or “anti”), as some would imagine. As repeated often, we do not want to make ourselves the victims of other people’s arguments (see Proverbs 18:13).
Yet, it is for this reason that I would refrain from highlighting 3 worst things about either ‘pro-’ or ‘anti-’ tithers. My aim is not to deepen the divide or applaud the scars suffered by our brethren on either side; rather, I’d be looking for ways to promote healing of wounds by engaging in a balanced understanding of whatever is of interest to everyone on this subject.
However, I also recognize the extremity in assertions like: “Ten percent of all Christian money belongs to the local church”. I’m not aware how many churches belong to the list of “Most evangelical churches” making such a strained assertion. Yet, I’ll offer simply by reminder that from the few cases considered in my observations, “Some local churches that preach about tithing are not as legalistic as many anti-tithers assume; yet, these local churches understandably use the tithing to help their ministries.”
What then do I mean by being extreme, strained or polarised? In few words, it is being unhealthily assertive.
We sometimes become unhealthily assertive especially when employing unbalanced (and in some cases ‘false’) ideas to establish “truth”, whatever our persuasions on the subject of tithing or any other topic.
For example, if I were an anti-tither, it would not matter to me whatever points of reference would lead to my conclusions; and the same thing would be true if the reverse (pro-tither) was the case. Using these ill-conceived and unjustified arguments to “force” people one way or another is unhealthy. It’s for this reason that I observed: “it is equally immoral to argue for a “NT command” under the disguised language of “Spirit-led giving” to PRESSURE believers to stop tithing!”
So, whether we’re trying to “FORCE” people to tithe or to stop tithing; or otherwise trying to “DRAGOON” anyone to “freewill, Spirit-led giving”, both attitudes are unhealthy. We cannot “force” anyone to do anything spiritual, just as it would be unspiritual to “FORCE” a “commandment” (NT or OT) on people. Either way, we could at best help them understand the ways of the Lord so they could be persuaded to make informed decisions.
Consequently, in our passion to stimulate believers into enjoying this ministry of giving, we should by all means eschew unhealthy arguments, interpretations and attitudes, while focusing on the real problems in money matters. If people are abusing the gifts and ministries in the Church, would stopping tithes eliminate those abuses? No – because we know for a fact that financial scandals assume a dimension far exceeding the arguments only about tithing!
When people ask the question: “Did the law of moses EVER command a money tithe or a tithe of money?”, they often are largely UNAWARE of the scripture that answers that question. So, they just take it for granted that just because some anti-tither asserts the opposite, it “must” be so. That was why I offered a clear answer ‘yes’ to help you study the Word of God for yourself, instead of making the mistakes of others who raise such queries to deny the point.
Now, some people deny that Exodus text as pointing to a tithe, and that is because they have long nested the traditional idea of “10%” in their minds every time the word ‘tithe’ is mentioned. Yet, not many anti-tithers are careful to point out that tithes are not defined as ONLY “10%” in Scripture.
However, there are so many examples of people who tithe a certain (undisclosed) amount to the Lord personally – not because it was “REQUIRED” of them, nor because they legally apply a “10%” benchmark to the concept of their tithes; but, among other things, it’s more because of their own commitment to stewardship in the ministry of their local churches.
On the other hand, if so many churches in our various localities are engaging in something without a proper understanding, there’s bound to be abuses and sad outcomes. When closely examined, there are other reasons for these abuses. Unfortunately, some people have hastily sought to blame their problems on tithes – and they’re happy to swallow anything that is “anti-tithing”.
What would be relevant is to present a balanced understanding of the term as occurs in Scripture, so that misunderstandings and unnecesary arguments are minimized. It is not a question of trying to “stop” one thing entirely in order to “force” another thing upon them; but rather to invite an enabling atmosphere that is beneficial to the Church.
Blessings.
Friend Gwaine
Lets get to know your stance so we might be enlightened. What is the name of your giving position or can it be labled? I know you probably support some tithe churches mabey, but I don’t know which kind. You say we are wrong on some points but not exactly what you belive to be optimum or best.
Please state your opinion of good tithe doctrine. Ours is one sentence. Give as Jesus commands you Christians are not obligated to a certain fixed percentage or fixed place of free will giving, but they give where and what Jesus places on their hearts.
What is good tithing doctrine or what is bad tithing doctrine and where do most churches stand? You are so elusive but yet you critique others. Where is your disclosure? What kind of Church do you go to and do you hold there doctrines on tithing? What denomination or famous person holds your views on tithing? Where do you deviate from most Churches tithe doctrines? The position of unbiased is so fuzzy. Sombody agrees with you, some group aggrees with you so pleas state it. Folks can debate better when your positions become more solid than jello.
I guess a tithe equals any form of offering in your view. So that makes you out of step with most of them would you agree?
Most force is in the hands of Large organizations telling folks they are in sin would you agree? Most Anti-tithers are not the ones getting paid to say that folks are in sin if they don’t give us money.
Would you ever preach 10% of all christian money belongs to the local church or a Christian is in sin? I guess you would not, I am not fully sure, but I guess that we are in agreement that the traditional doctrines about tithes preached in a large number of evangelical churches is incorrect about moneytithe or sin to the local church? If they are wrong How could they temper this incorrect doctrine?
Gwaine you stated that only some evangelical local churches are not as leagalistic as we anti tithers asume. Are you admitting that most have the money tithe to the local church or you are in sin doctrine? Or do most churches teach somthing less leagalistic than that?
I wish you would quantify your opinins more.your responces are like herding cats to understand without better than, worse than, more than less than qualifacations. Most churches clearly believe that tithes are ten percent of Christian income do you agree? So what constitutes a “non extreme” plan of stewadship conserining tithing in your opinion?
I know most churches tithe doctrine has this general ring ” all christians must give 10% to the local church or a Christian is in sin.” If you don’t agree with this you are definitly out of step with most evangelical churches would you agree?
Well I am just trying to find where you agree with us anti-tithers about the tithe abuses wich are commonplace.
The simple fact that you say that tithes are not 10% puts you out of step with traditions. Do you think you could preach your views in most evangelical churches and they would be comfortable? If you could then you are probably status quo.
Gwaine
1. How does my admission that many of the freewill giving principles are also found in the OT somehow prove that I am wrong about tithing? You make no sense. Freewill giving preceded tithing and built the sanctuary in Exodus. To me, that proves that the needs of God’s program can be fully met with freewill giving principles. Do you agree?
2. Do you not think that “Do not give by any commandment” might mean “do not give a set percentage because of the tithe commandment”? You are guilty of twisting my intent. My point is that freewill giving has been REPEATED in terms of grace after Calvary to the NT church and is, therefore, legitimate whereas tithing has NOT been REPEATED to the church after Calvary. That is a consistent hermeneutic. What is yours? What is wrong with that logic? You have totally ignored my hermeneutic yet you provide none of your own.
3. Tell us what you really think yourself so we can have a chance to critique your own solutions.
Gwaine
1. How does my admission that many of the freewill giving principles are also found in the OT somehow prove that I am wrong about tithing? You make no sense. Freewill giving preceded tithing and built the sanctuary in Exodus. To me, that proves that the needs of God’s program can be fully met with freewill giving principles. Do you agree?
2. Do you not think that “Do not give by any commandment” might mean “do not give a set percentage because of the tithe commandment”? You are guilty of twisting my intent. My point is that freewill giving has been REPEATED in terms of grace after Calvary to the NT church and is, therefore, legitimate whereas tithing has NOT been REPEATED to the church after Calvary. That is a consistent hermeneutic. What is yours? What is wrong with that logic? You have totally ignored my hermeneutic yet you provide none of your own.
3. Tell us what you really think yourself so we can have a chance to critique your own solutions.
Gwaine
i.e. freewillgiver’s comments
Pardon me for saying so, but you take forever to say little or nothing. Get to the point please. You sound like some moderate in the middle of the battle-field who does not want either side to win or lose.
Truth is truth and error is error. There is no grey in the area of defining the tithe.
4. I have given 16 texts which define the contents of the tithe as only food from inside Israel.
Where are your texts showing that my conclusion is wrong?.
5. I have proven that, although money was common in Genesis and essential for sanctuary worship, money was not included in the biblical definition of the tithe.
Where is your biblical proof that my conclusion is wrong?
6. There is no such thing as your “balanced” definition which allows tithes to be both “only food from inside Israel” and also “a tenth of one’s income.” Get off the fence and argue either one position the other.
Either you have no conviction at all in this matter and should not even be discussing it with us, or else you are pressing your own agenda as we are. Which is it?
No long speech —-biblical arguments please
Gwaine,
I do understand, for the most part, your stance on tithing. However, I also understand that some people will always let you down and I don’t blame my pastor for that. On the other hand, the reason I said he was a hypocrite is because he preached continually on the tithe being something I must do, or else! But, when I told him the reason, he contradicted everything he was preaching against; that’s why I called him a hypocrite. I was not because he let me down that I called him a hypocrite; people have let me down my whole life. I do understand that I have been manipulated and I have forgiven him of that.
Don’t get me wrong, it was not just one bill but it was multiple bills and thousands of dollars that I was behind on. I’m not blaming anyone for anything. However, in contrast to a commanded tithe, I believe we should give freely with purpose and give to the poor. If I have it and can afford it; as I have been blessed, I can bless others and be a blessing to them. I do believe in giving with a cheerful heart but not necessarily under pressure or condemnation if I do or do not give 5%, 10%, etc.
I understand that grace is not a law, per say. I was using the word “law” of the sense of “a rule of conduct or action prescribed or formally recognized as binding or enforced by a controlling authority;” in this case the controlling authority is God Himself (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/law). I was not using the “Law of Grace” as if it were an established “Law” in the Bible (like, Thou shalt not steal) or a foundational doctrine of the church.
Christians are not “commanded” to give anything. We are only commanded to love God with everything that we are, love our neighbors and each other. However, we are “encouraged” to give and if you have Jesus in you, you want to give anyway! I’m not talking about paying tithes, but giving to the poor and those in need (widows, orphans, the poor). There is not one example in the NT about paying tithes or the rebuke of a person not paying tithes. However, we are to give.
Concerning a few guidelines for giving, Jesus taught in Matthew 6:1-4 saying, “Take care! Don’t do your good deeds publicly, to be admired, because then you will lose the reward from your Father in heaven. 2 When you give a gift to someone in need, don’t shout about it as the hypocrites do—blowing trumpets in the synagogues and streets to call attention to their acts of charity! I assure you, they have received all the reward they will ever get. 3 But when you give to someone, don’t tell your left hand what your right hand is doing. 4 Give your gifts in secret, and your Father, who knows all secrets, will reward you (NLT).”
Paul gave us some more great advice about freely giving to those in need when he wrote to the church in Corinth saying, “Now about the money being collected for the Christians in Jerusalem: You should follow the same procedures I gave to the churches in Galatia. 2 On every Lord’s Day, each of you should put aside some amount of money in relation to what you have earned and save it for this offering (1 Corinthians 16:1-2, NLT).”
2 Corinthians 8:11-15 “Give whatever you can according to what you have. If you are really eager to give, it isn’t important how much you are able to give. God wants you to give what you have, not what you don’t have. 13 Of course, I don’t mean you should give so much that you suffer from having too little. I only mean that there should be some equality. 14 Right now you have plenty and can help them. Then at some other time they can share with you when you need it. In this way, everyone’s needs will be met. 15 Do you remember what the Scriptures say about this? “Those who gathered a lot had nothing left over, and those who gathered only a little had enough (NLT).”
2 Corinthians 9:6-8 “Remember this—a farmer who plants only a few seeds will get a small crop. But the one who plants generously will get a generous crop. 7 You must each make up your own mind as to how much you should give. Don’t give reluctantly or in response to pressure. For God loves the person who gives cheerfully. 8 And God will generously provide all you need. Then you will always have everything you need and plenty left over to share with others (NLT).”
2 Corinthians 9:10-14 “For God is the one who gives seed to the farmer and then bread to eat. In the same way, he will give you many opportunities to do good, and he will produce a great harvest of generosity in you. 11 Yes, you will be enriched so that you can give even more generously. And when we take your gifts to those who need them, they will break out in thanksgiving to God. 12 So two good things will happen—the needs of the Christians in Jerusalem will be met, and they will joyfully express their thanksgiving to God. 13 You will be glorifying God through your generous gifts. For your generosity to them will prove that you are obedient to the Good News of Christ. 14 And they will pray for you with deep affection because of the wonderful grace of God shown through you (NLT).”
I hope this clears a few things up.
I nothing but love for all my brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus,
Marty
Hello Russell,
A few notes to your penultimate remarks:
I’ve not been pressing any personal agenda; and if you’re seeking simply that I’m not welcome to discuss with the “anti-tithing camp”, please simply say so. I’ve always been respectful with those being addressed on this blog, and Jared would bear me witness on that as to my disinclination to litter his blog.
Where queries have been advanced, I’ve also proffered answers with pointers to Scripture; so no one’s going to allege otherwise, unless they are just being deliberately dishonest. My convictions have been set forth repeatedly – and it’s okay if typically by default you guys would just ignore them and pretend I never said anything.
Please don’t patronise me by evading the point about your concerns for my reply #11 for which you asserted: “this has never happened”, to which I replied: “Yet, the occasion referred to in my reply #11 has been often repeated; and no, I wasn’t bluffing: ( http://www.christianpf.com/obeying-god/comment-page-1/#comment-9603 ).” So, what has “never happened”? I haven’t seen how you made any remark about that point; instead you want to excuse it by waving your “admission” to what I called your attention to.
However, I directly pointed out to you on the other blog that “freewill” is not perculiar to just Christian giving in the NT – it was there in the OT as well even under the Law! There was nothing “new” about it, and one would have expected you to have made that point distinctly rather than use it as a hallmark of “New Covenant Giving Principles” in contradistinction to tithing. If the “freewill” preceded tithing, what was “new” about it to have become the “NEW covenant” principle? Why make it particularly a matter of the “NEW covenant” as if there was anything “new” about it?
I’m not in a law court, so please hold your high horse of hastily pronouncing “guilty” on people simply because you can’t agree with them. If you’ve anything sensible to say, do so as simply.
In all my discussions anywhere and on any blog, I’ve made my position clear that I’m not hooting for any particular percentage or benchmark. If you haven’t seen that on this page, then I seriously doubt you spent time reading through as you earlier claimed (reply #42). Yet, you cannot make a sweeping statement and then contradict yourself within the same breath. My point is simple: if someone detests giving by “any commandment”, what does it matter whether that “commandment” appears in the OT or NT? Go back and look up the meaning of the word “REPEATED” and see if you make any sense at all. I didn’t ignore your hermeneutics, and I’m not the only person on the net who has pointed out a few things about other strained arguments and interpretations you’ve made.
Lol, dear sir, I ALREADY have made my point consistently and repeatedly. Did you really “spend time” reading through this page or just jumped on the reactionary to engage me? Others have seen it, you claimed you spent time reading through the blog – and for all that, you missed it?
Thank you all the same for your thoughts. I do hope we can discuss simply in future correspondence without the hubris you display.
Hi freewillgiver,
You seem to be repeating yourself over and over without yet having said anything tangible. I’m sorry to observe this, but I could well repeat myself on them if you want me to do so – otherwise, I would be enthused if you could simply fine-tune your problems.
My position – please see the following:
[my reply #7] – |“Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; … And God is able to make all grace abound toward you” [2 Cor. 9:7-8].|
[my reply #9] – |Well, this may come as a surprise, but I’m neither “for” nor “against” tithing. I think Christians should be allowed the freedom in the principle found in 2 Cor. 9:7, quoted earlier.|
[my reply #22] – |Nothing has shifted from my position, and again I would repeat it here: “If you’re comfortable with ANY giving (especially MORE and ABOVE ‘1 out of 10?); or if you’re rather not comfortable giving anything at all (ie, ‘0 out of 10?) – DO AS YOU MAY!”|
[my reply #22] – |As in my challenge to Marty, here again: “If you’re comfortable with ANY giving (especially MORE and ABOVE ‘1 out of 10?); or if you’re rather not comfortable giving anything at all (ie, ‘0 out of 10?) – DO AS YOU MAY!” Does that sound like I set a “BENCHMARK” anywhere? In matters like this, let everyone be “fully persuaded in his own mind” (Rom. 14:5 and 2 Cor. 9:7-8).|
I’ve REPEATED these matters several times over; so what is it you’re alleging about my being elusive?
See the repeated answers above. I’m not elusive, and stated my position clearly as well discussed from that point. I don’t know why you guys are too much in a haste to be accusative, but that is not a healthy attitude to dialogue. If you do not agree with people, why the accusations – does that help towards a better understanding of the subject being discussed? You’re so keen to “label” folks positionally as if that answers your worry – sorry, I’m not partisan, and I already shared why I refuse to be partisan in one camp or the other in my reply #45.
No, freewillgiver – a tithe does not equal ANY form of offering in my view, and the references I gave demonstrated those that point out the case. If you suppose I have made other forms of offering to be the same with tithes, please point them out, thank you.
Between being “in sin” and “going to hell”, which sounds more aweful to you? Would you not agree that there are anti-tithers (as well pro-tithers) who have preached that very same thing? Do you want me to remind you with the links? If an anti-tither and pro-tither are both preaching the same cacophony and they both believe they are “correct”, where do you expect me to be between the two labels?
“Giving money” is not the problem – nor is getting paid. One may choose to not be paid, another may depend on that for his ministry as called of the Lord. If you don’t want to receive money by any means, why trouble someone else on that? Large organizations may appeal for money, would it shock you that others that don’t appeal for “tithes” are in bigger financial scandal than you may know?
Please honestly tell me that you completely ignored what I shared about my persuasions. Please tell me so – then I would understand why you are so bent on repeating yourself on issues I already addressed and vacantly accusing me of being so elusive.
Did you miss this, or simply ignored it [#45] –
‘However, I also recognize the extremity in assertions like: “Ten percent of all Christian money belongs to the local church”. I’m not aware how many churches belong to the list of “Most evangelical churches” making such a strained assertion. Yet, I’ll offer simply by reminder that from the few cases considered in my observations, “Some local churches that preach about tithing are not as legalistic as many anti-tithers assume; yet, these local churches understandably use the tithing to help their ministries.”’
If you’re asking me to “quantify” my opinions on this issue, let me REPEAT:
[my reply #7] – |“Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; … And God is able to make all grace abound toward you” [2 Cor. 9:7-8].|
[my reply #9] – |Well, this may come as a surprise, but I’m neither “for” nor “against” tithing. I think Christians should be allowed the freedom in the principle found in 2 Cor. 9:7, quoted earlier.|
[my reply #22] – |Nothing has shifted from my position, and again I would repeat it here: “If you’re comfortable with ANY giving (especially MORE and ABOVE ‘1 out of 10?); or if you’re rather not comfortable giving anything at all (ie, ‘0 out of 10?) – DO AS YOU MAY!”|
[my reply #22] – |As in my challenge to Marty, here again: “If you’re comfortable with ANY giving (especially MORE and ABOVE ‘1 out of 10?); or if you’re rather not comfortable giving anything at all (ie, ‘0 out of 10?) – DO AS YOU MAY!” Does that sound like I set a “BENCHMARK” anywhere? In matters like this, let everyone be “fully persuaded in his own mind” (Rom. 14:5 and 2 Cor. 9:7-8).|
I disagree with your listing of “most evnagelical churches” – don’t make “most” of everyone guilty by association just because you’re disenchanted with a subject.
Indeed, I’m not inclined with the “traditional” status quo of either camp – whether what “most” anti-tithers often assert or what some pro-tithers say. I don’t have to take anyone’s label upon myself when they are being dubious – most of these people are forever screaming “truth is truth and error is error”, but they will never be as calm to see their own error in a single matter!
Regards.
Dear Marty,
Thank you for making some more sense this time around. In the same manner I could have poured texts upon texts upon texts to buttress my position and argue out a lot of other issues; but would that change anything from what I have succintly stated earlier?
You see, the problem is not so much the percentages people argue against – that is just so silly, and that’s why I objected to the idea of blaming our problems on a certain percentage of what we give. Either way, if anyone feels comfortable giving “anything” or “nothing” at all, let them “DO AS THEY MAY” and be thankful for it. The grounds for the various blames people often offered are just tenuous and inconsistent, and we hear people within the same camp saying contradictory things. An example:
Okay, that’s your persuasion; but if I should point out that another anti-tither argues that Christians are supposed to give by a “NT commandment”, what would you say?
As before, I’m willing to let people speak for themselves and hold whatever views that appeal to them – in this case, it’s of no interest to me to take you up on that quote in direct contrast to what other anti-tithers have argued. Nor am I interested in any labels that people want to give themselves. We often find these kinds of parley where people in the same camp are saying directly contradictory things – the one says we should give by a “NT command”, the other argues we are not “commanded” to give anything. Are both of them saying the same things?
This was why I have often appealed that people should be willing to listen rather than argue by demagoguery. Sadly, the only thing it seems more people are interested in doing these days is labelling and accusing one another as to who’s on their side as against others.
Good for us all to note. Precisely why I noted earlier about my outlook:
Many blessings.
R: Why do you say “penultimate” when you mean “previous”? Is it an attempt to sound intelligent because you know a Greek word?
G: I’ve not been pressing any personal agenda; and if you’re seeking simply that I’m not welcome to discuss with the “anti-tithing camp”, please simply say so.
R: If you have no personal agenda, then why are you here? It sounds like you are merely arguing for the sake of arguing.
G: My convictions have been set forth repeatedly.
R: I have just read your past post to freewillgiver and see about 20 repetitions that you have no dog in this fight. We are all asking you to take a position.
G: … you guys would just ignore them and pretend I never said anything.
R: You write a lot and never say anything of substance.
G: No, I wasn’t bluffing.
R: How can you bluff when you have no cards in your hand to argue either direction?
G: If the “freewill” preceded tithing, what was “new” about it to have become the “NEW covenant” principle? Why make it particularly a matter of the “NEW covenant” as if there was anything “new” about it?
R: In the NT freewill giving is founded on the fact that NT givers are born again and are motivated by the Holy Spirit to love lost souls. While there are many things similar to OT giving, the motive has changed drastically.
Now, what in the world does that have to do with your opposition (excuse me, bantering) about tithing? It is irrelevant to the beginning points of the blog.
G: In all my discussions anywhere and on any blog, I’ve made my position clear that I’m not hooting for any particular percentage or benchmark.
R: What are you trying to do then? Are you trying to change our minds? What is the purpose for engaging us in a discussion that has no ultimate goal?
G: My point is simple: if someone detests giving by “any commandment”, what does it matter whether that “commandment” appears in the OT or NT?
R: Easy. For 8 years nobody has tried to parse words like you do. The statement in 2 Cor 9:7 that “giving is not by commandment” means that God has not commanded us to give a certain amount. The context implies that Paul was commanding freewill giving.
Our point is that the NT does not command tithing. Do you agree or disagree? Why don’t you answer that question? Why is it so hard to answer?
G: I’m not the only person on the net who has pointed out a few things about other strained arguments and interpretations you’ve made.
R: Except for my discussion of Melchizedek and El Elyon most have nothing to say to me personally. And my conclusions can be reached without discussing Melchizedek or El Elyon. I wanted to delete that section in the book but friends convinced me to leave it in.
Gk: Lol, dear sir, I ALREADY have made my point consistently and repeatedly.
R: I have stopped and read all of your arguments again. Since you are not “passive” and are not taking sides, where are your arguments against tithing?
Why do you not present texts to back up your arguments? I find you a fake who only want to practice your debate skills.
I await your reply to my 16 texts and definition of the word “tithe.” Let’s put some meat on the subject and get specific.
I had to update some things on this blog, so some of you might not have been receiving an email when someone responded. Might want to check the last few comments, to make sure that you have not missed something.
- jared
Marty I dont think you or anyone on this site understands Gwains arguments. Gwaine are you alone in your believes about tithes? Why did Jesus direct you to this site and to other sites against tithes. We Know our purposes in Jesus for posting what is your mission and Where do you come from. Not physically, but what group do you trust.
If we are friends in Jesus name then tell us where your belifs come from and how they have evolved. Please tell us anyone else or group that belives like you do.
We dont know what kind of Church you go to or if anyone believes like you do about money tithes. Please tell us.
“10% of all Christian money belongs to the local church”
This is what I say constutes the money tithe doctrine. How do you deviate from this do you oppose this? I hear your critisims of Anti tithes but your critisims of the staus quo standard money tithe doctrine are faint and unintelligible. You are defininly anti- anti-tithers but I have heard little to zero pro tither critisims. Demonstrate your ballance if you have a reason. What is your purpose. Do you want to convert us we definitly want to convert you. Please answer and tell us how you arrived at these positions. What was your evolution to get where you are now in thoughts on tithing? Can we get a little context Gwiaine you are a mystery?
I could preach my moneytithe message I defined above in Almost Every major demonmination evangelical and get cheers from thier pastors. I certanly would not get much opposition if I said it 30x in a message. “The Money tithes equal 10% of all christian money, and they belong to the local church” Would you agree?
The money tithe docrtine might be more prevalent than Dispensationalism. I will be spacific. The Assemblies of God, The Southern Babtist, the PCA and every non-liberal Presbyterian church. The Churches of Christ are anti-tithe. Penicostals outside of the AG are mostly word of faith so they believe in a hyper form of the money tithe doctrine. Why question that some evangelicals might not be so dogmatic without acknoledging that most denominations and churches preach exactly what I stated or they would not oppose exactly my money tithe doctrine formula.
Gwain who are you? How did you arrive at your opinions? Do you really like us and want to see more of Jesus in us or are you just here to argue.
@Russell,
It’s obvious I wasn’t debating any Greek words; and by ‘penultimate’ I was pointing to your last two replies (#47 & #48, hence ‘penultimate remarks’), as is clear by my combining both in a single reply in mine [#50]. Was that too challenging to understand that you had to make it an issue at all?
I wasn’t aware that this blog was meant for those who have personal agenda to drive; nor have I been arguing for the sake of doing so. If this blog is about the personal agenda of your camp, all you needed was say so and I’d be done. But thanks for letting me know.
I don’t engage in fights, if that’s what you’re about. What is it about my position that confuses you – could you kindly share?
I’ve heard that lazy quip many times over – it’s typically the device of those who pretend they can read but are too challenged to do so.
What’s the correlation between “I wasn’t bluffing” and “how can you bluff”? Do you make sense to yourself at all?
Since “freewill” preceded the “NEW covenant”, you should not be misleading your readers to thinking it is peculiar to the “NEW covenant” – there’s nothing “NEW” about it. That was what I called your attention to in the other blog – and that was what you raised as regards my reply #11 this page and hooted “that has never happened”.
Appealing to misleading ideas to harangue others was unhealthy – that was what my rejoinder in the other blog was addressing. The “613 commandments” that you had no clue about was one of the points of reference you several times employed in your arguments, and that was one of the first things I addressed – go remind yourself by taking a peek.
If you’ve already made up your mind that discussing with you has no ultimate goal, it’s no wonder why you’re mewling rather than reasoning. The only thing to be regretted was expecting a mature discourse from you.
You’re being inconsistent here in your classic eisegesis, lol. Let’s be simple for your sake: the statement “giving is not by commandment” does not appear in 2 Cor. 9:7; and in context when one checks the verse, Paul was not “commanding” but rather exhorting the saints – that verse is not an ‘imperative’. This is clearly seen when we compare it with 2 Cor. 8:7 & 8 where he also speaks on giving – immediately after urging them to “abound in this grace also” he declared: “I speak not by commandment…”
The funny thing about your eisegesis is that you’re contradicting yourself. First, in the above quote you asserted vacantly that Paul was “commanding” freewill giving; yet on the same verse you argued the direct opposite in your essay on your website – “(6) DO NOT give because of ANY COMMANDMENT (8:8, 10; 9:7)” (see under caption ‘CHRISTIAN GIVING PRINCIPLES’; reposted in reply #42 this page). Has anyone noticed that while you’re quoting “2 Cor. 9:7” here and plastering it with a “command”, you quoted the same “2 Cor. 9:7” to argue the direct opposite?!? It appears you’ve been speaking from both sides of your mouth for all those “8 years”, unsure of your inconsistency, no?
Obviously, even after pretending to have read ALL my arguments again, you didn’t see it! I already answered – see my reply #35:
“Yet, I often caution my friends that (as far as I know), the NT epistles do not “command” tithes; although I acknowledge the fact they are correct that no single verse condemns tithes in the “BIBLE” – not one!”
You give me serious grounds to doubt your vacant assertions. Are you not the same person who insisted you “spent a while reading the blog” (#42)? You even claimed you “stopped and read ALL” of my arguments ‘AGAIN’ (# 53). Your otiose and pretentious claims are typical of your hauteur, so nothing new there.
Anyone can reach any conclusions including “sending people to hell” without discussing Melchizedek and El Elyon. However, just incase you missed it by default, I’ve noted that “what would be more helpful, perhaps, is that discussants try and be honest, thoughtful, and avoid extremes” (mine, #9); and again, ‘on either side I deeply resent dishonest and hypocritical statements or ideas used as a bastion for arguing “truth”’ (#11).
I very much doubt you’ve read ‘ALL’ my arguments ‘AGAIN’ – see as noted above for your pretentious claim.
I’m sure you couldn’t resist the urge to be pejorative, which is typical of folks who twaddle. You can keep making these prevarications to calm your nerves, but the verses I quoted are still there when you’re ready to consider them.
Considering you’re the same person who opines that discussing with you “has no ultimate goal”, what games are you playing here? If you’ve proven yourself to be intellectually immature to dialogue, there would be no ultimate goal in promoting your pretences.
Regards.
Dear freewillgiver,
I don’t appeal to arguments from demagoguery.
I’m not partisan; and for the rest, please see my reply #27.
It’s alright to label me however suits you, but it does very little to help your concerns. As to my balance, please see my reply #45, (note the with emphasis) –
“For example, if I were an anti-tither, it would not matter to me whatever points of reference would lead to my conclusions; AND THE SAME THING would be true if the reverse (PRO-TITHER) was the case. Using these ill-conceived and unjustified arguments to “force” people ONE WAY OR ANOTHER is unhealthy”.
Context: ‘If you carefully go through my concerns, you’d find that I deplore extremes on EITHER side; and it’s quite unfortunate when Christians would have to resort to “tactics” to discuss “truth”’. [my reply #21].
Whatever the messages we may give, I’m not seeking cheers from anyone.
You’ve already asked this question, and my answer is the same.
Your money-tithe “formula” is weak as it seeks to make “most” churches guilty merely by your narrow or restrictive definition. It’s like making a sweeping statement and running away with it. Yet, claiming that “most denominations” preach “exactly” what you stated is a manufactured statement you hope to plaster on everyone. I’ve checked the summary statements of some of the denominations you mentioned, and they do not argue tithes in “exactly” the way you stated. This is why I disavow partisan and shallow statements that are too presumptuous.
I’ve always maintained my inclination to dialogue amicably and in an enabling atmosphere. As Christians we don’t need to resort to wild and misleading statements to justify any labels we choose for ourselves; for resorting to such ruse does not help build the character of Jesus in us, much less the attitude of some to tend to “dog fights”.
I trust we can share our thoughts in a healthy manner – but if the general opinion is that discussing with people here “has no ultimate goal”, I’m thankful to know so and wish you all my warmest regards.
Hi Jared,
I’ve already offered that it won’t be in anyone’s best interest to litter your blog. The latest rejoinder especially from Russell hasn’t said anything of substance other than pick quips here and there and mispunch with silly remarks – more like quetching and mewling than reasoning. It’s not a difficult exercise for me to deal with them. However, if that is what your blog is about, I could oblige you and your friends – but I seriously hope we wouldn’t need to go there.
One thing that I yet notice is that nobody has ever taken anything I pointed out and refuted it intelligently. For example, just imagine after proffering answers (# 37) to freewillgiver’s queries (# 36) – I haven’t seen any intelligent rejoinder pointing out where my answers were flawed. Vacant assertions have been made back and forth to the effect that I haven’t stated anything; but none of those playing these games has pointed out just what in my rejoinders they have found untenable. Not one.
Are we going to keep playing these games – perhaps because those too eager to label themselves under the “anti” banner have run out of steam? I’ve amicably sent this to you by email so you understand I’m not given to “fights” or on a mission to clog your blog – and I’ll repost this concern on the blog for their considerations as well (if you’d permit). I’d expected a very mature engagement, but perhaps I expected too much, as it’s evident that they’ve resorted to puling for their entertainment.
Regards.
Dr. Kelly thank you so much for all your work. Friend Marty hello I did not mean to sound harsh I was just pointing out that our friend Gwaine has really offered so little about the core of his beliefs on tithing. Part of the purpose of this blog is to Challenge others in the name of Jesus and to have some kind of fellowship. However with such vaugeness in the long post of Guane confusion is the result.
Gwaune friend I don’t mean to overload you with questions but mabey you could convince us to be neutral if you could define it to us. In your experience,Are most evangelical U.S. churches pro tithers or nuetral? At least that would help me put you in perspective to most other churches.
I would love to compare his position about tithes to the standard church or us anti-tithers but what I know about Gwains position I could fit in a thimble. What is the history of your beliefs Gwaine? Becase your post lack context they are the most difficult post to understand that I have encoutered in a year of posting on this blog.
Mabey I am becoming unclear Please give us your doctrine and not just scripture because you seem to have a compleetly different take than we do. What is this position? Who else holds it? What kind of church do you go to and do they support your take on tithes? Are these unreasonable questions?
Gwaine why do so many folks on this site doubt your neutrality? I believe you could remedy this with more disclosure.
Marty, Gwaine also has not offered his reson for posting here, or much of personal perspective about tithes exept that many anti- tithers use what he calls bad arguments. Of course this makes us wonder if he really is accidentally or on purpose a pro money tithe person. Neutrality is very hard for me to believe in when it comes to tithes. I do know that pro tithers love neutrality by anti-tithers becase they are already in control of most U.S. churches.
Can Gwaine name any Christian folks who agree with him about tithes? If he did then that would be a nice start to understanding his position. Sorry Gwaine and all for this long post so answer at your leisure and behind your other priorties work, family, ministry but when you have the time please answer. Are most US churches in favor of your position in your experience and what groups of Christians share your beliefs?
@freewillgiver,
Thanks again for your rejoinder. In my note to Jared, I’ve observed that this discussion seems to be bending towards unethical strains – especially when you guys have resorted to emotion rather than reason. I mean, what’s with all back-patting and solicitations to Marty when you’re addressing Gwaine? What sort of game is this turning to?
Anyhow…
I don’t mind the length of anyone’s rejoinder – I would always take the time to carefully go through them.
However, there’s one reason why I seriously doubt your sweeping generalizations and argument from demagoguery, which is what I just shared with you:
“I’ve checked the summary statements of some of the denominations you mentioned, and they do not argue tithes in “exactly” the way you stated. This is why I disavow partisan and shallow statements that are too presumptuous.”
I cannot just agree with you by rote on the sweeping assumptions you make about these denominations, unless you’re asking me to become a victim of the same tendency that weakens your generalizations.
Cheers.
Gwaine Friend
Sorry if I offended you by addressing Marty. If you are a Christian then you love me and I love you the best I can. Hey I still want fellowship in the name of Jesus and you have taught us somthing. I never knew what a rejonder was untill you used the word so often that I have an Idea. I still want clarification friend. Who do you felloship with and how do you pay your tithes? Dose your felloship agree with you? What is your denomination?
As to your check of the denominations this is why I stated that they had my exact beliefs or they would not oppose my money tithe doctrine formula. I meant that this was awful close to what they all teach.
Do you have a more precice definition to what most evangelical churches teach about tithing? I know most would not oppose what I said but if I am wrong show me where. I would welcome the enlightenment. By the way tell me your doctrine also and how it differs from the mainstream if I have mislabeled the mainstream please show me what it is.
Do you doubt that most evangelicals Aofg and Southern Baptitst and the PCA churches preach that “ten percent of christian money belongs to the local church” please show me any link that they disagree with such. Do you doubt that I could preach exactly that and get alot of Amens?
There are beliefs which many churches hold in common about tithes. What are your beliefes that you hold against most churches or in favor of most churches? I still don’t know what kind of giving system that you put yourself under or that you oppose most churches.
Gwaine you are educated definitly and a smart guy. Can you see why we think you are elusive. Name your favorite preacher. Mine was the Bible answer man Hank Hennegraph but he is pro tithing. His associate editor of the CRI Journal is against tithing so I have some respect for hank.
There still is little context but a whole lot of high vocabulary critiqus (see I can’t spell) of us Anti tithers. Please whenever you can come back Please answer how you came to your beliefs what kind of churches do it best and what you think of most churches tithing system.
I am looking forward to more rejoinders but I hope they teach more about your bacground.
Three days into this blog and I still know nothing more about Gwaine’s position than when I first read it. Nobody is accomplishing anything. This is totally absurd. Nobody has offered any Bible text about tithing for discussion. All I discern is someebody practicing mass confusion. I will return if an when somebody actually wants to disccuss God’s Word.
Freewillgiver,
Do not worry about it friend, I am not easily offended by anyone. However, I do appreciate your concern with it; it shows me your heart’s intention to not create strife among the brethren.
I understand Gwain as being a pro-tither, even Gwaine has sounded neutral in most posts.
The way I understand truth is, that you cannot be on both sides and you can’t be nuetral; you have to pick one side or another if you want any credibility. Jesus said, “If you not with me, then your against me (paraphrased).”
I didn’t come here to argue over tithing. I came to share my experience, speak about the truth of it and to possibly meet others who share this deep biblical truth. I don’t mind talking about the money-grubbing tithing scam that has been perpetauted by preachers for way too long. Taht is one of my “beef’s” with the modern-day churches.
I also wanted to possible find a church that has the heart of Jesus and desires to be a non-tithing, freewill & purposeful giving type of church or fellowship in my area.
Gwaine, Thanks for you last reply and I glad we can come to a reasonable understanding.
Blessings,
Marty <
Dear Marty,
I appreciate your concerns, nevermind the mislabeling. What people often try to do these days is label people one way or another so that it’s convenient for them to create an “us-versus-them” situation. What you may not realize is that such a tendency is quite ungodly and unnecessary – the “us-versus-them” attitude in matters like this is responsible for the deep divide that Christians find themselves in today. If my quest to stimulate a “healing of wounds” by promoting a healthy dialogue (cf. Romans 14:13) is unwelcome to you, what then is the substance of all our talk about “love” in Christ?
Indeed, in Matthew 12:30 and Luke 11:23 Jesus said, “Anyone who isn’t with me opposes me” (NLT). But has Gwaine opposed JESUS at any time? Or, was the Lord Jesus an “anti-tither”? When people ferret verses from the Bible to mispunch the way you did, it’s a wonder the sort of “love in Jesus” you hold out to your brethren.
My discussions did not indicate that I was on both sides – otherwise, why have anti-tithers been so perturbed about my posts, since they would’ve assumed I was on their side? You certainly can’t be so bland as to assert that someone “can’t be neutral” – if you want verses in the Bible showing where godly men have been nonpartisan to raging debates, simply ask for them and I would gladly oblige you [see James 2:1 & 9, NLT].
Many churches both (tithing and non-tithing) have a heart for Jesus. It is not our doctrinal persuasions about tithing that determines whether or not we have a burning passion for Christ, or which church is better than the other. Believers today may like to choose between “non-tithing churches” and “tithing churches”, but is that not a most disturbing trend for us who claim to be walking in the Spirit of God? Whatever anyone may be inclined to, my simple challenge has always been: “DO AS YOU MAY!”, and God bless you thereto.
Best wishes.
@freewillgiver,
Thank you yet again for your amicable reply and interest in getting to know me a bit more. I wasn’t offended, just that I wondered earlier about the scenario that was playing out.
Anyways, the reason for my reservations about anyone’s denominational affiliations is to discourage the tendency to turn our discussion into an ‘us-versus-them’ situation. I’m more interested in ‘what is being said’ than in ‘what label you wear’.
Okay, I understand you – awful close, yes; but I’m not quite sure if that’s always the case, as we shall soon see.
True, while most evangelical churches may not oppose your simplistic definition, they nevertheless hold different ideas about its application, so we cannot just plaster a simplistic statement upon all or “most” of them. For instance, while some of those you had mentioned would encourage tithing, they do not enforce it upon their members, nor do they necessarily peg tithes at “10%”; so it’s not quite healthy to list them among those who tend to make it your assertive statement. (I’ll share a few links later).
My premise in these matters – 2 Corinthians 9:7-8 and Romans 14:5, quoted several times already. I do not make a ‘doctrine’ out of these, so if people have “purposed in their hearts” to commit a proportion of their income (whatever proportion that may be) to the Lord, why should anyone quarrel with that? ‘Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind’. In just the same manner, if some have “purposed in their hearts” to give selfishly or nothing at all, let them do as they may – it’s not in my place to harangue them (Rom. 14:10). What we could do is encourage people to genuine stewardship, not the sort of
burlesque that most anti-tithers have taken as a career to argue endlessly about this issue.
The ‘mainstream’ (which you defined as ‘most’ evangelicals) are not all preaching ‘exactly’ what you stated on their behalf – not all or most are donning the formulaic statement you proposed: “ten percent of christian money belongs to the local church”. It would sound like they were enforcing it upon their members when this is not always the case.
It’s important to understand what churches mean by tithes belonging to a local church. For instance, th AofG states that “the tithes rightfully belong in the church with which the Christian identifies” ( http://www.ag.org/TOP/BELIEFS/gendoct_06_tithing.cfm ), but it does not necessarily mean that the AofG forces tithing on its members. On the other hand, the PCAs are not known to be stringent to demand that your tithes “must” follow your statement. A quotefrom the Redeeemer Presbyterian Church (http://redeemerpres.com/content/view/24/41/ ) –
Among those churches who encourage tithing, after all is said and done, they make clear that tithes are not tied to legal obligations or any legalism binding upon any of their members, though they would encourage its practice as one among several methods of stewardship. In other words, members are encouraged to tithe where they can, but this does not mean that other practical issues and needs in their lives are to be neglected. In due course I’ll share the links of a few cases that bear out this point articulately.
@freewillgiver,
It would be fruitless for me to show favouritism to some churches against others on my personal beliefs.
True, there are common notions held by many churches about tithes – most commonly defined as ONLY “10%” and nothing else. However, I do not see tithes defined as ONLY “10%” every single time in Scripture; and even most anti-tithers would agree there are various percentages and expressions for tithes in many verses in the Bible. As earlier, some churches vary the “percentage” of their tithes (whether less or more than 10%), and it does not appear that they have been forcing their members to be burdened thereto.
The big question is not so much what ‘percentage’ should be used, but rather whether tithing or any other type of giving should be FORCED on any Christian. We cannot FORCE anything (whether tithes or freewill giving) on Christians, nor make either one or the other a “REQUIRED” matter in the Church. The problem with so many people is that they have become more concerned with “systems” than in the giving itself – and that’s where we miss the essence of our Christian calling. Whether people tithe a certain “portion” of their income, or give in some other way, the essential matter is the giving, not the ‘system.’ And there’s no denying the fact that the NT encourages stewardship by setting aside a “portion”, so it’s risible indeed for some anti-tithers to vacantly assert that they are against any “proportion” or “percentages”.
I haven’t been elusive, no matter what anyone may think. Where people scream that “neutrality is not possible” my reason for being nonpartisan is simply based on what Scripture says about our attitudes –
“My dear brothers and sisters, how can you claim to have faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ IF YOU FAVOR SOME PEOPLE OVER OTHERS?. . . But if you favor some people over others, you are committing a sin. You are guilty of breaking the law” – James 2:1 & 9, NLT.
“Showing partiality is never good” – Proverbs 28:21, NLT.
I’ve enjoyed and continue to enjoy the ministries of many godly men. However, after all the quarrels and haggling on either side over tithing, one question I would ask you guys is this: IS THERE AN ANATHEMA FOR CHRISTIANS WHO TITHE?
I once fervently argued against tithing, using most of the same retired and recycled anti-tithing arguments… until God opened my eyes to see that most of the arguments were mere excuses, ill-conceived and warped (I could point out so many misconceptions upon request). Yet, this did not tilt me into the ‘pro-tithing’ camp: I just learnt to see that it is not the “system” that God is most concerned with, but the challenge of the giving itself (2 Corinthians 8:24). This is why my persuasion has consistently been: “Every man according as he purposeth in his heart,” even if they purpose to tithe a certain “portion” of their income – let them have the freedom to “DO AS THEY MAY”, and to enjoy doing so in proving their stewardship to God Himself.
Now tell me: is the challenge to “Do as you may” tantamount to being “elusive”? If not, why the repeated accusation?
Okay, I admit – and apologise – that on this blog I’ve mostly critiqued anti-tithing arguments and not as much pro-tithing arguments, although I’ve highlighted a few worrisome issues with some of the latter. For instance, I resent the idea of using tithes in ways that there’s not a hint for in Scripture – such as a requirement for church membership, or employment discrimination in church organizations, or using it as a ploy for filthy lucre. We all know that not everyone on either side of the debate commit these fallacies, and I’ve repeated myself severally that on either side there are some points we could all appreciate. People who find it difficult to see any value from both sides are wishing to throw the baby out with the bath water. It’s as if to say that the labelling is more important to them than what is being said.
I’m least interested in whatever labels anyone goes by, but whether “anti” or “pro”, it is unethical for people to resort to flawed ideas to argue “truth”. If anti-tithers are using false arguments and warped interpretations as much as some of their pro-tithing opponents, would it be worthwhile throwing anyone into either camp? This is why the labelling is of no consequence to me in these discussions, and people are free to accuse howsoever pleases them – at the end of the day, some of those hooting the quip that “truth is truth and error is error” have not demonstrated they’re interested in “truth”. Should we then resort to fallacies just to push some anti-tithing or pro-tithing “truth”?
@freewillgiver,
Here’s the post with details of the links as promised earlier, to highlight the points made in my previous post, that:
1. most churches do not “force” but encourage their members to tithe;
2. they do not make tithing a matter of legalism or what is “REQUIRED”
3. some churches have varied percentages – less or more than “10%”
4. they do not make tithes the priority to neglect other needs of tithers
5. they don’t consider tithes from a legalistic application from the Law
Let’s see a few examples (a few emphasis mine):
1. From a United Church of Christ website:
2. from Legion of the Order of St. Michael (Catholic)
3. from Metropolitan Community Churches website:
4. from Lutheran Church of the Resurrection:
5. Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod,
6. The Redeemmer Presbyterian Church, on Stewardship:
7. An observation from “What Presbyterians Believe”
8. St. Joseph Church (Catholic) :
Do these all sound like the bland assertions that many anti-tithers often argue from demagoguery?
Regards.
More mewling and pretentious claims. When you drop your hubris and ornamental farce, join us again.
(Jared, if this is a repeat, delete this one and let the other stand – I wanted to provide the links for what I promised freewillgiver. Thanks)
——————-
@freewillgiver,
Here’s the post with details of the links as promised earlier, to highlight the points made in my previous post, that:
1. most churches do not “force” but encourage their members to tithe;
2. they do not make tithing a matter of legalism or what is “REQUIRED”
3. some churches have varied percentages – less or more than “10%”
4. they do not make tithes the priority to neglect other needs of tithers
5. they don’t consider tithes from a legalistic application from the Law
Let’s see a few examples (a few emphasis mine):
1. From a United Church of Christ website:
2. from Legion of the Order of St. Michael (Catholic)
3. from Metropolitan Community Churches website:
4. from Lutheran Church of the Resurrection:
5. Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod,
6. The Redeemmer Presbyterian Church, on Stewardship:
7. An observation from “What Presbyterians Believe”
8. St. Joseph Church (Catholic) :
Do these all sound like the bland assertions that many anti-tithers often argue from demagoguery?
Regards.
Gwaine
There is no Bible discussion happening to join. You are simply running some kind of self-appeasement scam and I have much more important ways to spend my time. Jared should stop this blog adn start something more worthwhile that does not inclde your garbage.
Russell,
How long are you going to keep up your twaddle? I’ve offered that there’s no need for your hubris.
Regards.
Dr. Kelley thank you for the rebuke. “The rebuke of a friend is better than the praises of an enemey” I will remember to keep the discussion to Jesus, remember to quote scripture and to Christian stewadship.
One of our big problems with this discussion has been that many of our post have been lost. Then we get frustrated posting again but our thoughts are often more blunk, angry, trunkated and rushed. However Jesus was in control of that. I know Gwaine and everyone felt pain whose post were lost. I told you in one lost post that you made me think about the pagan Melchezedek stuff. Where have I made you think. You will respond in time thank you.
Gwaine thankyou for a little more self disclosure. “You will know a fool by his many words” I am not to carefull with my words but you have helped me sharpen them. It was great to read your answer because I do not want you to leave this site in strife. I love that you read and reply it is a caring action.
The meaning that you put into the word tithes is better than the meaning that is taught by most evangellical pastors and congregations. Thank you for partially defining the standard normal American Evangelical definitions as problematic.
Thank you for also saying that you were anti-tithes and you do reflect that at times. Since your meaning thrown into tithes is superior to most churches you would get trouble if you preached your doctrines on tithes would you agree?
“Ye are a chosen generation a royal priesthood a holy nation”
While giving a money tithe the concept of the preisthood of all believers becomes muddled. I believe that the tithe exesses are often done by well meaning Christian leaders who usually call themselves pastors. I put a different meaning into the word pastor and I put a different meaning into the word tithes.
Why not drop the word tithes when conserning Christian giving? I know that pastors have variations in what they make the standard doctrine to mean but tithes is a loaded word where even if I preached free will giving and called it tithing some would still walk away with “ten percent belongs to the local church” and that there are “priest and those who give to tithes to the priest called clergy”.
As you have seen this site is really about reformation of the existing organizational church back to a more Jesus centered path. Christians were called in the Bible “the way” and the money tithe doctrines set up the the money tithe systems “word of faith, name it and claim it”
The diminishing of the prieshood of all believers is part of the problems with the money tithe doctrines. Also the local church mentality, What do you think about that? I think that pastoring is somthing that all Christians do in word and deed more than it is a position. The ten percent moneytithe to the local church understandings that are common help create super-pastors and super inefficient ministries. True most are done out of good will and trying to praise Jesus but like the government of California and the U.S. goverment most 9 out of ten dollars get used doing stuff the New tesetment did not command.
Nice stuff, Big buildings and well paid staff, nice musicals at the 4th of July, but not much for starving Christian kids in Africa percicuted by Muslim radicals.
I want churches in homes everyday and kids in Christian schools everyday. This is where the local church money should be going to everyones personal ministries. What do you think? Are my thoughts in the direction of yours?
Christ in you
This 6 resons post is turning into the 600 reasons we debate tithing. I like the new symbols artwork Jared. Nice touch.
There are so many reasons I debate tithes. One reason I present for debating tithes to Jared, Gwaine, Marty and everyone is that “where ones treasure is your heart is also”. Contained in the standard “10% money tithe to the local church” misundestandings are man made doctrines on top of man made doctrines which all lead away from Jesus being central. The “local church” mentality is more suported by believing that Christians money tithe, rather than give offerings to Jesus. The Church, the Body of Christ becomes a place like the Jesish temples. Then Chistianity becomes mostly tied to a day and a place.
Offerings is a superior term for What Christians give. What do you think would you preach offerings or tithes? Temples are connected with the earth. I give to Jesus, Besides our body is the temple and the body of Christ is the large temple. I think the local church term distorts the idea that givinig should go to people that Jesus puts on our hearts. “Let every man set in his heart what he should give”
Why not always replace the word tithes with offering or giving? Where is the power in the word tithes if it is so easily manipulated, loaded and misunderstood in the language of today. Tithes is not an evil word but the standard monetithe doctrine is very problematic. To the average American Christian listener tithes will usually always additinally mean code for The standard tithe doctrine. It takes de construction of the word to set the average U.S Christian straight. I am African American the term Coulored or Negro takes de- construction to not be hostle in my ears even if it comes from a loving person.
Gwaine “There is no anathema in my heart or in any others on this site that I know of for those who tithe”. I don’ Know exactly who thinks those who tithe are anathema. Whatever anathema means. Rememeber my vocabulary is often as low as my spelling skills.
For those who recieve money tithes and preach the standard doctrines which you your self would never teach, yes for that most of us would agree on this site that teaching such, and taking money is a sin most of the time. Some Christian leaders are truly in mistaken error. Taking others monye with the tithe doctrines diminishes others mission in my opinion. If folks truly are giving voluntarily then there is almost no problem. But the term tithe implys force to the average U.S. listener. We truly believe church is the people and that “we are the body of Christ” If we are priest and the body of Christ then we all have local ministries wich are every day and in the home.
Where are all the Christian videos for our children? Why do most American Christians have more secular entertainment than Christian entertainmet. Partially because America christians believe that some of the Money belongs to Jesus and the 90% belongs to themselves. They also believe that they go to the “House of God” when they attend their local church.They are mislead away from truly believing that they all have thier own ministries and all their money is Church money. “Ye are a chosen generation a royal priesthood” Now this misleading is mostly unintentional but certain terms are pregnant in our Biblically illiterate culture. Tithes is one of those pregnant terms loaded with bad meanings and docrtine in the U.S. Is there a term you Gwain would use that is equivelent or is the word tithes irreplacable?
We are anti tithe but we are also more for starting ones own ministry and effficient ministries to spread the love of Jesus. Sometimes the most efficient is to the local church weather they preach money tithing or not. Most of us on this site would be of the persuasion that most of the time the local church organizations are the least efficient ministries. Direct giving to the poor and training ones family at home is the most efficient most of the time. Any one dissagree with that? Please explain your dissagreements.
What would you preach to others when they might ask “Should I give ten percent money tithe to my local church like my pastor says or should I start my own ministry by sending my kids to Christian School”‘? Gwain I can guess that your answer would be “set in your heart what you should give” Everyone, what do you think of my lines of thougt here?
Anyways folks if we love and believe in Jesus then we are the Body of Christ, and the royal priesthood. We are all priest, we are the church and it starts in our homes. There is no day of Church we must let Jesus be in everyhing we do. I have asked alot of questions I hope I have caused somone to think. Please respond when yall can.
Christ in Us
Thankyou you Gwaine for the link
Everyone check out the link that Gwane gave us. Jared it is incredible!
The Assemblies of God has always been a proponent of tithing (or giving one-tenth of one’s personal income to support the work of God). Later in their Christian tithe document they explain it was Christians duty to give tithes. This is the common stuff I am against. They load the word tithes with 10% of ones income. Notice that includs everyone no exeptions.
They just defined it.The average U.S. Bibiically illiterate Christian would walk away with the understanding “tithe or be in sin” Do you agree?
If they replaced the word tithes with offering it would covey much more freedom. Would you support this doctrine of theres I will post on this again it is a whopper. Gwaine I don’t think so. This is the common scripture twisting which I speak of
Notice how the commanded tithes of moses to support the Levites “always crops or food” in the bible became income. To the average listener income= money. They fit my simplistic exactly money tithe formula or they are not against my formula. Notice how they never mention that the poor did not pay tithes and that tithes were only for Landowners and Cattle owners. Heck they called tithes 10%. They are incredible.
“10% of all Christian money belongs to the local church”
The Assemblies of God was my church for most of my life now I fellowship truly undenominational.
Christ in us!
Yep,
just read that AOG article. Thanks for pointing that out freewillgiver. Clearly, the AOG states that the tithe is a biblical requirement.
Of course they can’t force their members to tithe without violating individual rights to choice. These denominations don’t encourage tithing, as if it’s a good practice. If they simply thought tithing was a good principle, then they wouldn’t go into detail about how Jesus commended and Abraham gave it before the law.
The AoG believes the tithe is required.
They say it right there. If they don’t think tithing is entire requirement for giving then guess what, they still believe that tithing is “part” of the requirement.
Warning the following is from the AofG church This blog opposes most of what will soon follow.Thank you Gwaine.
______________________________
The Assemblies of God is also concerned about people who withhold tithes when they do not like decisions and directions espoused by spiritual leaders. Christians should fellowship with a local body of believers and bring their whole tithes into that storehouse (Malachi 3:10).
Though some of the Israelites may not have liked decisions made by Moses and his successors, they were given no alternatives. While we may designate some of our offerings (beyond the tithes) to ministries outside the local church, the tithes rightfully belong in the church with which the Christian identifies.
And if one is not identifying with a local body of believers, he or she disregards God’s instruction that we not forsake assembling together with believers (Hebrews 10:25).
Some Christians do not tithe, claiming they cannot afford to give up 10 percent of their income. Simple arithmetic may suggest that 90 percent will not go as far as 100 percent in satisfying essential family needs.
But God has built a multiplication factor into our giving of tithes and offerings.
Malachi recorded God’s words, “Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse… Test me in this… and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it” (Malachi 3:10).
Though we do not give to God in order to get more back, as some suggest we should, God’s promises are still true–if our giving is according to His instruction.
________________________________
Wow folks can you believe that? How many false doctrines are contained in the above statment?
Local church? Leadership= to the Athority of Moses? Almost automatic Blessings for money tithers?
This is some of the Assemblies of God official statment on tithes. Gwaine and everyone. I made a generic statment conserning most churches that they would exactly agree to or not oppose here was that statment.
_______________________________
“All christians must give 10% of their money to their local church or be in sin”
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Wow! Christians should give even if they do not support decisions by leadership. Free will offerings only begin after the 10%. That my friends is forced Christian money tithing and churches are the new temples of God. Wow there are so many Christian man made doctrines in that statment. That is a pro money tithing document!
All Christians are not priest in their formula if you Believe in what they posted. There are some Christians who recieve the tithes and some who give the tithes-leadership. All in Christ do not have equal ministries accorcding to that formula. There is alot more but that is all for now.
Thanfully all Christians are priest. “Ye are a chosen generation a royal priesthood”
And priest had control to how they ran their own ministries. We can “set in our hearts what we should give”. Under the above statment Offerings are only after the mandated 10% moneytithe.
I think Assemlies of God doctrine fits the definition of a Christian group which would not oppose my statment or they would fit it exactly. How do you think they did?
Was that not an amazing piece of reading? Please tell me what yall think
Christ in Us
There is an anti-tithe web site for the AOG also.
http://www.christian-witness.org/archives/cetf2006/tithing37.html
Hi Jared,
First, I don’t know what happened but my reply to freewillgiver detailing the links of the other churches on tithes did not appear. I could have posted them to him if I had his email addy. But no worries.
However, let me try and correct your misconception on the article of the AofG:
There’s nothing wrong in pointing out Jesus’ commendation and Abraham’s tithing before the Law. In contrast, some anti-tithers have misrepresented both the person of Melchizedek and Abraham’s tithing; and it’s not surprising that this canard was conveniently devised to mislead folks into believing Abraham’s tithing was paganism. If you consult some of the refrences used in arguing paganism for Abraham, you’d be surprised that they teach the direct opposite!
Lol, you just saw “entire requirement” and immediately ran with it! Did you try to look at the context of what they stated? Re-read that whole paragraph – the first and last statements are urging Christians NOT to look at the tithe as an “entire requirement” or “obligation”. That is why they stated that: “The giving of either tithes or offerings WITH A GRUDGING SPIRIT LOSES MUCH OF THE BLESSING that can come as we faithfully GIVE OUT OF LOVE RATHER THAN OBLIGATION.”
The simple thing there was that they urged the giving to be out of love and NOT by obligation.
It may help you to carefully read the article through again.
Regards.
Dear freewillgiver,
Your replies are appreciated. It’s always been my endeavour to be open to dialogue; but where discussants prove they’re more interested in tomfoolery than in reasoning, I feel very sorry for them.
Yet, you’re one of those with whom I’ve enjoyed discussing. I think there are several concerns we share both ways, which have been addressed several times both in few words and at length, if we’d been more willing to listen than in labelling other people. A few other points we may need to reconsider for balance. Please don’t get me wrong, but let’s highlight some from yours:
1. WORDS AND MEANINGS -
I’m not sure that the meaning of tithes as we discussed is going to be problematic to most churches – especially because “most” of the churches I tried to outline earlier (post not reflected) quite understand this meaning and that is why they are not pedantic or formalistic about a fixed figure of “ONLY 10%”. The examples I tried citing in the yet-to-be-reflected post include:
- United Church of Christ
- some Catholic churches
- the MCC (Metropolitan Community Churches)
- some Lutheran churches (eg., Lutheran Church of the Resurrection; and the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod)
- some Presbyterian Churches
- … and a host of other well-known churches.
This is not an exhaustive list; but the basic thought is that they’re not pedantic on the meaning of tithes as to plaster it with a legalistic OT Law application.
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2. CONFRONT ABUSES DIRECTLY -
The problem is not the tithes or whatever people call themselves; rather, it is the manipulation employed to defraud and mislead people – and this happens on both sides of the debate. You’re aware that some priests and leaders in the OT actually abused their calling and privileges (eg., 1 Sam. 2:15-17 & Ezek. 34:1-4, 18); but what was God’s response to such things? He raised up godly men who confronted these abuses directly, rather than castigating the tithes and offerings!
On the pro-tithing side, some people have abused the tithes and offerings of God’s people. For instance, apart from the financial scandals, they use it as a prerequisite for membership in their churches, or as visa to the kingdom of God (hence salvation), or as the basis for employment discrimination. These are not the reasons why God established tithes in any instance – and we should by all means be set against and directly confront these abuses.
On the other hand, the mistake “we” often make on the anti-tithing side is to mispunch by attacking tithes with frivolous and fallacious arguments and misinterpretations of simple Bible texts. Just imagine the argument that Abraham’s tithes were “pagan”, and many people quoting such fallacies are not even aware that some references which anti-tithers use in their arguments actually teach the opposite! In some other instances, those who are now too embarrassed to use the “pagan-Abraham-Melchizedek” sophistry, are yet misrepresenting what other churches are saying about tithes! I mean, why do we have to repeatedly resort to bare-faced falsehood just to “prove” that tithes are “unBiblical”?
Instead of resorting to dubious and wild misrepresentations of issues, we could simply identify the real problems (the abuses) and deal with them squarely! Resorting to falsehood in arguing for or against tithes is ungodly; and there’s no justification for disguising such falsehood under the “love” of Jesus.
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3. MISINFORMATION AND PREJUDICES -
The terminology or argot are not half as important as the proof of our commitment to actually give (see 2 Corinthians 8:24). When people worry so much about what ‘term’ to use in their giving, then unnecessary debates begin to emerge. This is why people who talk about “NEW covenant principles” are being dubious, because they mislead the gullible into thinking that those principles are “NEW” and were not in the “OLD covenant”.
What exactly makes “offering” to be superior to ‘tithes’ or any other term? Is it that you’re personally seeking to promote one over the other, so that you can be partial in this matter? “Showing partiality is never good” – Proverbs 28:21 (NLT).
If you’re going to promote the term ‘offering’ over ‘tithe’, you’d have to present verses specifically stating one term as ‘superior’ to the other. While we may be thrashing about on either terms (offering and tithes), someone else might come along and join the fray with his own appellations: vows, gifts, contributions, donations, pledges, collections, etc. And then where would the debate then lead on from there?
As before, it’s not so much what term anyone wants to use that is paramount in our giving. If we replace the word ‘tithe’ with ‘offering’, does that automatically solve our problems? Does that take away the fact that people would still give a certain percentage of their income for God’s work, whatever percentage that may be? Or does using the term ‘offering’ eliminate the same scandals that have blistered the saints? You can see that your recommendation does not even come up to scratch with dealing with practical issues.
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4. APPEALING TO UNRELATED ARGUMENTS -
While we’re all called to care for one another in the Body of Christ, God has gifted mature men for leadership who pastor local churches. We should never confuse the first (’that the members should have the same care one for another’ – 1 Cor. 12:25) for the second (‘taking the oversight thereof’ – 1 Peter 5:1-3; see also Jer. 3:15 and Acts 20:28). Christ gave SOME, not everyone, to be pastors and teachers in the Church (Eph. 4:11). Distinguishing the one from the other would help us towards maintaining a balance and not blaming unrelated problems on tithes.
- – - – - – - – -
5. A RESPONSIBILITY: FOSTER UNDERSTANDING -
Don’t you think that people who promote a biased definition of any subject are actually contributing to the injuries suffered by many? Both anti-tithers and pro-tithers often appeal to some narrow meaning of the tithes so that it becomes convenient to attack strawmen – this is why some people reject some meanings of the term, and others strongly appeal to other definitions. If we take only some beveled meaning or definition of the term and hold only to that, what more are we doing than others holding their own preferred definition?
Our responsibility is to help others appreciate a proper understanding of giving and stewardship, rather than promoting the default ideas derived from appeal to wild statements. It is not the “replacement” of one word with another fanciful term that solves our problem. From the onset, I’ve maintained that it’s of no consequence to me whatever names anyone uses – what’s far more essential is the proof of our commitment to give (2 Cor. 8:24).
6. REPLACING SCRIPTURE WITH HUMAN IDEAS -
There’s a serious problem with that idea – it’s just an idea, but it delicately gravitates away from God’s Word. First, you would need to clarify what you mean by “organizations”. In Scripture, we know that local churches were not established as organizations; yet, God’s Word presents various local churches to us.
Second, and more importantly, what does Scripture say about what you’re proposing? Does direct giving to the poor (Mark 14:7) replace our stewardship in committed giving in local churches (1 Cor. 16:1-4)? You may be disinclined to giving in local churches – that’s okay; but does an appeal to humanistic ideas take precedence over God’s Word?
- – - – - – - – -
7. CONFUSING PRIORITIES
You seem to be confusing issues here, freewillgiver. Sending one’s kids to any school (Christian or otherwise) is not the same thing as “starting your own ministry”. If you’re not comfortable identifying with a local church (Heb. 10:25), that has nothing to do with the choice of whether or not to send your kids to any school.
- – - – - – - – -
As regards the Assemblies of God (AofG), it seems you guys have largely misconstrued their position. So, from yours, freewillgiver, here are a few things to note:
‘Generic statement’? It is unfortunate that you’re using the position of one church to plaster guilt across the board. That is the sort of wild reaction that’s a put-off in these discussions, and it’s unfortunate that the links of several churches I posted yesterday were not reflected (I could share them with you by email, or ask Jared for them). Not everything about their position on tithing appeals to everyone, and I might show you a few other things you never considered as well before jumping to conclusions.
Perhaps I missed it; but could you show me where the official statement says you’d “be in sin” for not giving 10%? The article states that if one was not identifying with a local body of believers, “he or she disregards God’s instruction that we not forsake assembling together with believers (Hebrews 10:25)”. They did not state that if one does not give “10%”, they must “be in sin”, and it’s not a godly attitude to put words into their mouth.
That also was not inferred in the article of their Statement on tithing. You may have a serious problem with the “local church”, but please share with us on how the “local church” in Scripture is ‘false doctrine’. As for “leadership” and “Moses”, you’re driving your own canard into the article, and anyone who can read with context will see your reaction is uncalled for.
However, I’m more concerned with your assertion: “Almost automatic Blessings for money tithers” – that was also NOT given in the article either. First, they noted that – “the ATTITUDE with which both tithes and offerings are given is very important”; and then they made clear that:
1. “we faithfully give out of love RATHER THAN OBLIGATION”
2. “we do not give to God in order to get more back”
Do these sound like they were saying the same thing as your “almost automatic Blessings for money tithers”?! Why the deliberate prevarication?
“Free will offerings ONLY BEGIN after the 10%” – honestly, is that what they said? Are we so driven by our own tendentiousness to deliberately misread simple statements? I’m just wondering.
Although I’m not profoundly familiar with the AofG Bylaws, yet I don’t think you are fairly representing their views. They nowhere stated that free will offerings “only begin” after the 10%. At best, you may have been referring to the statement in the article that reads: “we may designate some of our offerings (beyond the tithes) to ministries outside the local church”; or to “voluntary offerings given by God’s people over and above the required tithe”. These pointers (‘beyond’ and ‘over and above’) do not mean that freewill offerings ONLY BEGIN after the 10%. In fact, you’d get a full picture in reading the official delineation of the AofG position found in the General Council Bylaws. Please ask, and I’d be glad to oblige the links by email, if posting them may not be approved.
Please carefully read the following:
- 1 Corinthians 12:18, 27-30;
- Ephesians 4:11-12;
- Hebrews 13:7
- 1 Peter 5:1-2, 5
How do you reconcile your own formula of “equal ministries” with what we find in God’s Word in those verses? You really should take the time to study more on leadership in the Church before you draw hasty and deeply flawed conclusions.
In all, thank you for the opportunity to yet identify some of the problems in typical anti-tithing arguments. I’ve been there and out, so there’s nothing strange about them. The tendency for people to manufacture wild canard for their arguments leaves a question on my mind: WHY do some believers resort to deliberate falsehood just to push their own default position?
May the grace of the Lord Jesus help us to genuine godliness.